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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. The Iran War (was Nuclear Program) thread

The Iran War (was Nuclear Program) thread

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  • MikM Offline
    MikM Offline
    Mik
    wrote last edited by
    #1052

    An interesting take.

    https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/oil-prices-saw-a-record-rise-in-march-why-the-us-may-not-need-to-reopen-the-strait-of-hormuz/ar-AA1ZQ9v0

    "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Offline
      MikM Offline
      Mik
      wrote last edited by
      #1053

      And another one.

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-s-fate-belongs-to-iranians-not-the-west-and-it-s-now-or-never/ar-AA1ZRwV3

      "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

      1 Reply Last reply
      • taiwan_girlT Offline
        taiwan_girlT Offline
        taiwan_girl
        wrote last edited by
        #1054

        Opinion Peace

        President Donald Trump once remarked that his intuition and instincts were the key factors separating him from the mere mortals trying to negotiate good deals. “I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me,” the president said at one point during his first term.

        And in many cases, Trump’s words have proved to be prophetic — prioritizing his gut over the traditional advice of his political advisers has earned him two presidential election victories and a core base of support that sticks with him regardless of what decisions he makes.

        Yet on war, peace and Iran, the insightful gut Trump claims to possess is looking more and more like a cesspool of adolescent-level judgment. The president and his allies will continue to give interviews about how wonderful the military operation against Iran is going and how Tehran, humbled and confused, is either on its last legs or desperate to make an agreement to save itself.

        Yet we shouldn’t fall for public relations strategy. The United States is in the position it’s in today because Trump’s predilections on Iran have failed consistently since his first term. Every assumption he’s carried has been dead wrong on every level.

        The list is far too long to extrapolate on comprehensively in a single column, but consider this.

        In May 2018, after campaigning in part on how horrible the Barack Obama-era Iranian nuclear deal was, Trump issued an executive order to officially pull the United States out of the accord and reinstate all of the economic sanctions previously lifted on the Iranian economy. The aim, he said at the time, was to pressure the Iranians so hard that they would be forced to crawl back to the negotiating table and settle on a new deal with tougher terms. In Trump’s own words, “The fact is (the Iranians) are going to want to make a new and lasting deal, one that benefits all of Iran and the Iranian people.”

        How did that assumption work out? Not very well. Iran took the U.S. withdrawal as an insulting breach of an agreement it negotiated only a few years prior. Even as Iran’s banking channels were isolated from the international financial system and more Iranian oil barrels came off the market, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei refused to authorize a renegotiation with Washington. Instead of caving as Trump expected, Iran acquired leverage of its own by installing more centrifuges, churning out uranium at higher grades and increasing its stockpile of nuclear fuel. The decision to leave the old nuclear deal simply added to Trump’s problems.

        Those faulty assumptions have continued to the present day. During the opening hours of the war, Trump, convinced by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that killing Khamenei would cause chaos in the Iranian ranks, targeted the supreme leader’s office partly in the hope that the regime itself would be decapitated. Khamenei and some of his closest longtime advisers were killed during the first day of the conflict, which was no doubt a stellar military success on the tactical level.

        However, the weakening of the Iranian regime that Trump and Netanyahu were betting on missed the mark. There were no mass demonstrations by the Iranian people against the regime, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps continued to fight even more ferociously, and Khamenei’s death did nothing to bring Iran’s negotiating position onto a more reasonable plane. Trump thought he could rerun the playbook in Venezuela, where taking out a dictator at the top would lead to a more pragmatic replacement. Nothing like that has occurred.

        The Strait of Hormuz, the Middle East’s most important chokepoint for oil, natural gas and other exports, is the sight of another Trump miscalculation. Despite being warned that Iran could shut the waterway during any prospective war with the United States, the president apparently believed Tehran would capitulate before that scenario happened. Why he was so confident things would shake out as he predicted was a mystery.

        Of course, we know how the story has proceeded. The Strait of Hormuz, through which about one-fifth of the world’s crude oil flows to market, is now essentially an Iranian-controlled lake. Shipping traffic has declined by an astounding 95% from prewar levels, increasing the price of crude by more than half over the last month and forcing the Trump administration to relax sanctions on Iranian crude to ensure adequate global supply. The Economist magazine found that Iran is now earning twice as much from its own oil sales as it did before the U.S. and Israeli bombs started falling, a direct consequence of Tehran’s decision to turn maritime traffic in the Persian Gulf on and off virtually at will.

        Finally, Trump continues to assume that if he drops enough bombs on enough Iranian targets, kills enough senior-level Iranian officials and lobs enough rhetorical threats on Truth Social — the latest being a post on Monday threatening to wipe out Iran’s electricity infrastructure — Iran will capitulate out of fear. Yet we should keep in mind that the U.S. has already bombed Iran more than 10,000 times over the last month, and when you add Israel’s strikes to the equation, the number goes up even further.

        Even so, Iran is determined to continue stringing out the war for as long as it takes to get Trump to quit out of economic desperation. Iran’s strategy could very well work. After all, the last thing Trump needs is even higher gas prices and inflation at a time when the midterm elections will hinge on which party is doing a better job tackling cost-of-living issues.

        Being a leader sometimes means having the humility to admit when your previous belief system was incorrect. The other path is pressing on in your delusions, hoping you will eventually be vindicated.

        RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote last edited by
          #1055

          This has the potential to be another 2020 election. Trump will insist he won, magats will agree, career GOP politicians will pretend to agree, and the whole fucking world will know otherwise.

          Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • taiwan_girlT taiwan_girl

            Opinion Peace

            President Donald Trump once remarked that his intuition and instincts were the key factors separating him from the mere mortals trying to negotiate good deals. “I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me,” the president said at one point during his first term.

            And in many cases, Trump’s words have proved to be prophetic — prioritizing his gut over the traditional advice of his political advisers has earned him two presidential election victories and a core base of support that sticks with him regardless of what decisions he makes.

            Yet on war, peace and Iran, the insightful gut Trump claims to possess is looking more and more like a cesspool of adolescent-level judgment. The president and his allies will continue to give interviews about how wonderful the military operation against Iran is going and how Tehran, humbled and confused, is either on its last legs or desperate to make an agreement to save itself.

            Yet we shouldn’t fall for public relations strategy. The United States is in the position it’s in today because Trump’s predilections on Iran have failed consistently since his first term. Every assumption he’s carried has been dead wrong on every level.

            The list is far too long to extrapolate on comprehensively in a single column, but consider this.

            In May 2018, after campaigning in part on how horrible the Barack Obama-era Iranian nuclear deal was, Trump issued an executive order to officially pull the United States out of the accord and reinstate all of the economic sanctions previously lifted on the Iranian economy. The aim, he said at the time, was to pressure the Iranians so hard that they would be forced to crawl back to the negotiating table and settle on a new deal with tougher terms. In Trump’s own words, “The fact is (the Iranians) are going to want to make a new and lasting deal, one that benefits all of Iran and the Iranian people.”

            How did that assumption work out? Not very well. Iran took the U.S. withdrawal as an insulting breach of an agreement it negotiated only a few years prior. Even as Iran’s banking channels were isolated from the international financial system and more Iranian oil barrels came off the market, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei refused to authorize a renegotiation with Washington. Instead of caving as Trump expected, Iran acquired leverage of its own by installing more centrifuges, churning out uranium at higher grades and increasing its stockpile of nuclear fuel. The decision to leave the old nuclear deal simply added to Trump’s problems.

            Those faulty assumptions have continued to the present day. During the opening hours of the war, Trump, convinced by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that killing Khamenei would cause chaos in the Iranian ranks, targeted the supreme leader’s office partly in the hope that the regime itself would be decapitated. Khamenei and some of his closest longtime advisers were killed during the first day of the conflict, which was no doubt a stellar military success on the tactical level.

            However, the weakening of the Iranian regime that Trump and Netanyahu were betting on missed the mark. There were no mass demonstrations by the Iranian people against the regime, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps continued to fight even more ferociously, and Khamenei’s death did nothing to bring Iran’s negotiating position onto a more reasonable plane. Trump thought he could rerun the playbook in Venezuela, where taking out a dictator at the top would lead to a more pragmatic replacement. Nothing like that has occurred.

            The Strait of Hormuz, the Middle East’s most important chokepoint for oil, natural gas and other exports, is the sight of another Trump miscalculation. Despite being warned that Iran could shut the waterway during any prospective war with the United States, the president apparently believed Tehran would capitulate before that scenario happened. Why he was so confident things would shake out as he predicted was a mystery.

            Of course, we know how the story has proceeded. The Strait of Hormuz, through which about one-fifth of the world’s crude oil flows to market, is now essentially an Iranian-controlled lake. Shipping traffic has declined by an astounding 95% from prewar levels, increasing the price of crude by more than half over the last month and forcing the Trump administration to relax sanctions on Iranian crude to ensure adequate global supply. The Economist magazine found that Iran is now earning twice as much from its own oil sales as it did before the U.S. and Israeli bombs started falling, a direct consequence of Tehran’s decision to turn maritime traffic in the Persian Gulf on and off virtually at will.

            Finally, Trump continues to assume that if he drops enough bombs on enough Iranian targets, kills enough senior-level Iranian officials and lobs enough rhetorical threats on Truth Social — the latest being a post on Monday threatening to wipe out Iran’s electricity infrastructure — Iran will capitulate out of fear. Yet we should keep in mind that the U.S. has already bombed Iran more than 10,000 times over the last month, and when you add Israel’s strikes to the equation, the number goes up even further.

            Even so, Iran is determined to continue stringing out the war for as long as it takes to get Trump to quit out of economic desperation. Iran’s strategy could very well work. After all, the last thing Trump needs is even higher gas prices and inflation at a time when the midterm elections will hinge on which party is doing a better job tackling cost-of-living issues.

            Being a leader sometimes means having the humility to admit when your previous belief system was incorrect. The other path is pressing on in your delusions, hoping you will eventually be vindicated.

            RenaudaR Offline
            RenaudaR Offline
            Renauda
            wrote last edited by
            #1056

            @taiwan_girl

            Where did you find that op-Ed?

            Elbows up!

            jodiJ 1 Reply Last reply
            • RenaudaR Renauda

              @taiwan_girl

              Where did you find that op-Ed?

              jodiJ Offline
              jodiJ Offline
              jodi
              wrote last edited by
              #1057

              @Renauda said:

              @taiwan_girl

              Where did you find that op-Ed?

              Daniel DePetris, Chicago Tribune

              1 Reply Last reply
              • RenaudaR Offline
                RenaudaR Offline
                Renauda
                wrote last edited by
                #1058

                Thanks, Jodi

                Elbows up!

                1 Reply Last reply
                • jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nycJ Offline
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote last edited by
                  #1059

                  Anyone listen? Summary?

                  Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote last edited by
                    #1060

                    A pastiche of the last four weeks of Truth Social rants and scrums with the press. Clear as mud. More smoke and mirrors.

                    Elbows up!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ Offline
                      jon-nycJ Offline
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote last edited by
                      #1061

                      Heh.

                      Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote last edited by
                        #1062

                        An oil analyst I follow posted ‘Hormuz closed until
                        May, folks.’

                        Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

                        RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          An oil analyst I follow posted ‘Hormuz closed until
                          May, folks.’

                          RenaudaR Offline
                          RenaudaR Offline
                          Renauda
                          wrote last edited by
                          #1063

                          @jon-nyc

                          I think your oil analyst might be an optimist.

                          Elbows up!

                          1 Reply Last reply

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