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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. The Iran War (was Nuclear Program) thread

The Iran War (was Nuclear Program) thread

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  • RenaudaR Renauda

    The Pentagon would definitely have had several scenarios/plans to secure the Strait during the first 24 to 48 hours of the military strike. All would have been presented to the civilian decision makers. That the Trump Admin decision maker didn’t heed the cautions and advice of the military planners is entirely another issue.

    My hunch though is that at the political level the assumption was that the Iranian regime is so hated and rotten internally that would be just a matter of kicking the door in and the whole corrupt structure would collapse under its own weight.

    Someone else used the same empty headed logic between September 1940 and June 1941 regarding another internally despised and rotten state. It cost millions of human lives.

    Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor Phibes
    wrote last edited by
    #1047

    @Renauda said:

    My hunch though is that at the political level the assumption was that the Iranian regime is so hated and rotten internally that would be just a matter of kicking the door in and the whole corrupt structure would collapse under its own weight.

    I've said said it before but the idea that being bombed makes people turn against their own government rather than against the people dropping the bombs doesn't really add up.

    I was only joking

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Mik

      Yep. That was what I suspected as well. But I think it's more akin to Putin's perception of Ukraine folding immediately. The difference being that Putin is committed.

      RenaudaR Offline
      RenaudaR Offline
      Renauda
      wrote last edited by Renauda
      #1048

      @Mik said:

      Yep. That was what I suspected as well. But I think it's more akin to Putin's perception of Ukraine folding immediately. The difference being that Putin is committed.

      There maybe some parallels, but overall I think Putin’s perception was that he believed his own mythology that throughout history Ukrainians and Russians were one and the same people and nation and that the country never existed, or had a right to exist in the first place. He even maintains that Ukrainian, despite having its own distinct morphology, grammar and vocabulary- is merely a dialect of Russian. He expected Ukrainians to greet the Russians as liberators.

      Likewise with the military, I believe the US military planners anticipated considerable Iranian resistance to any attack, which is, of course what they are now receiving.

      The Russian military on the other hand, was flat footed regarding the Ukrainian forces and expected little to no resistance once the massed Russian formations started their advance into Ukraine. They anticipated that once a few dug in Ukrainian positions fell in the Donbas and in the north approaching Kyiv, the Ukrainians would voluntarily lay down their weapons across all fronts. Once this occurred the Zelenskyi government would either flee to the West or be brought back to Moscow in cage until such time they could be repatriated to Kyiv to endure a humiliating show trial and a Siberian jail for the rest of their lives.

      Elbows up!

      1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nyc
        wrote last edited by
        #1049

        Uh oh.

        Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote last edited by jon-nyc
          #1050

          He really should avoid April Fools day.

          Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nyc
            wrote last edited by
            #1051

            Seems like saying this out loud isn’t the best way to get a deal done.

            Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Offline
              MikM Offline
              Mik
              wrote last edited by
              #1052

              An interesting take.

              https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/markets/oil-prices-saw-a-record-rise-in-march-why-the-us-may-not-need-to-reopen-the-strait-of-hormuz/ar-AA1ZQ9v0

              "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

              1 Reply Last reply
              • MikM Offline
                MikM Offline
                Mik
                wrote last edited by
                #1053

                And another one.

                https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/iran-s-fate-belongs-to-iranians-not-the-west-and-it-s-now-or-never/ar-AA1ZRwV3

                "You cannot subsidize irresponsibility and expect people to become more responsible." — Thomas Sowell

                1 Reply Last reply
                • taiwan_girlT Offline
                  taiwan_girlT Offline
                  taiwan_girl
                  wrote last edited by
                  #1054

                  Opinion Peace

                  President Donald Trump once remarked that his intuition and instincts were the key factors separating him from the mere mortals trying to negotiate good deals. “I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me,” the president said at one point during his first term.

                  And in many cases, Trump’s words have proved to be prophetic — prioritizing his gut over the traditional advice of his political advisers has earned him two presidential election victories and a core base of support that sticks with him regardless of what decisions he makes.

                  Yet on war, peace and Iran, the insightful gut Trump claims to possess is looking more and more like a cesspool of adolescent-level judgment. The president and his allies will continue to give interviews about how wonderful the military operation against Iran is going and how Tehran, humbled and confused, is either on its last legs or desperate to make an agreement to save itself.

                  Yet we shouldn’t fall for public relations strategy. The United States is in the position it’s in today because Trump’s predilections on Iran have failed consistently since his first term. Every assumption he’s carried has been dead wrong on every level.

                  The list is far too long to extrapolate on comprehensively in a single column, but consider this.

                  In May 2018, after campaigning in part on how horrible the Barack Obama-era Iranian nuclear deal was, Trump issued an executive order to officially pull the United States out of the accord and reinstate all of the economic sanctions previously lifted on the Iranian economy. The aim, he said at the time, was to pressure the Iranians so hard that they would be forced to crawl back to the negotiating table and settle on a new deal with tougher terms. In Trump’s own words, “The fact is (the Iranians) are going to want to make a new and lasting deal, one that benefits all of Iran and the Iranian people.”

                  How did that assumption work out? Not very well. Iran took the U.S. withdrawal as an insulting breach of an agreement it negotiated only a few years prior. Even as Iran’s banking channels were isolated from the international financial system and more Iranian oil barrels came off the market, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei refused to authorize a renegotiation with Washington. Instead of caving as Trump expected, Iran acquired leverage of its own by installing more centrifuges, churning out uranium at higher grades and increasing its stockpile of nuclear fuel. The decision to leave the old nuclear deal simply added to Trump’s problems.

                  Those faulty assumptions have continued to the present day. During the opening hours of the war, Trump, convinced by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that killing Khamenei would cause chaos in the Iranian ranks, targeted the supreme leader’s office partly in the hope that the regime itself would be decapitated. Khamenei and some of his closest longtime advisers were killed during the first day of the conflict, which was no doubt a stellar military success on the tactical level.

                  However, the weakening of the Iranian regime that Trump and Netanyahu were betting on missed the mark. There were no mass demonstrations by the Iranian people against the regime, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps continued to fight even more ferociously, and Khamenei’s death did nothing to bring Iran’s negotiating position onto a more reasonable plane. Trump thought he could rerun the playbook in Venezuela, where taking out a dictator at the top would lead to a more pragmatic replacement. Nothing like that has occurred.

                  The Strait of Hormuz, the Middle East’s most important chokepoint for oil, natural gas and other exports, is the sight of another Trump miscalculation. Despite being warned that Iran could shut the waterway during any prospective war with the United States, the president apparently believed Tehran would capitulate before that scenario happened. Why he was so confident things would shake out as he predicted was a mystery.

                  Of course, we know how the story has proceeded. The Strait of Hormuz, through which about one-fifth of the world’s crude oil flows to market, is now essentially an Iranian-controlled lake. Shipping traffic has declined by an astounding 95% from prewar levels, increasing the price of crude by more than half over the last month and forcing the Trump administration to relax sanctions on Iranian crude to ensure adequate global supply. The Economist magazine found that Iran is now earning twice as much from its own oil sales as it did before the U.S. and Israeli bombs started falling, a direct consequence of Tehran’s decision to turn maritime traffic in the Persian Gulf on and off virtually at will.

                  Finally, Trump continues to assume that if he drops enough bombs on enough Iranian targets, kills enough senior-level Iranian officials and lobs enough rhetorical threats on Truth Social — the latest being a post on Monday threatening to wipe out Iran’s electricity infrastructure — Iran will capitulate out of fear. Yet we should keep in mind that the U.S. has already bombed Iran more than 10,000 times over the last month, and when you add Israel’s strikes to the equation, the number goes up even further.

                  Even so, Iran is determined to continue stringing out the war for as long as it takes to get Trump to quit out of economic desperation. Iran’s strategy could very well work. After all, the last thing Trump needs is even higher gas prices and inflation at a time when the midterm elections will hinge on which party is doing a better job tackling cost-of-living issues.

                  Being a leader sometimes means having the humility to admit when your previous belief system was incorrect. The other path is pressing on in your delusions, hoping you will eventually be vindicated.

                  RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nycJ Online
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote last edited by
                    #1055

                    This has the potential to be another 2020 election. Trump will insist he won, magats will agree, career GOP politicians will pretend to agree, and the whole fucking world will know otherwise.

                    Person. Woman. Man. Camera. TV.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • taiwan_girlT taiwan_girl

                      Opinion Peace

                      President Donald Trump once remarked that his intuition and instincts were the key factors separating him from the mere mortals trying to negotiate good deals. “I have a gut, and my gut tells me more sometimes than anybody else’s brain can ever tell me,” the president said at one point during his first term.

                      And in many cases, Trump’s words have proved to be prophetic — prioritizing his gut over the traditional advice of his political advisers has earned him two presidential election victories and a core base of support that sticks with him regardless of what decisions he makes.

                      Yet on war, peace and Iran, the insightful gut Trump claims to possess is looking more and more like a cesspool of adolescent-level judgment. The president and his allies will continue to give interviews about how wonderful the military operation against Iran is going and how Tehran, humbled and confused, is either on its last legs or desperate to make an agreement to save itself.

                      Yet we shouldn’t fall for public relations strategy. The United States is in the position it’s in today because Trump’s predilections on Iran have failed consistently since his first term. Every assumption he’s carried has been dead wrong on every level.

                      The list is far too long to extrapolate on comprehensively in a single column, but consider this.

                      In May 2018, after campaigning in part on how horrible the Barack Obama-era Iranian nuclear deal was, Trump issued an executive order to officially pull the United States out of the accord and reinstate all of the economic sanctions previously lifted on the Iranian economy. The aim, he said at the time, was to pressure the Iranians so hard that they would be forced to crawl back to the negotiating table and settle on a new deal with tougher terms. In Trump’s own words, “The fact is (the Iranians) are going to want to make a new and lasting deal, one that benefits all of Iran and the Iranian people.”

                      How did that assumption work out? Not very well. Iran took the U.S. withdrawal as an insulting breach of an agreement it negotiated only a few years prior. Even as Iran’s banking channels were isolated from the international financial system and more Iranian oil barrels came off the market, Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei refused to authorize a renegotiation with Washington. Instead of caving as Trump expected, Iran acquired leverage of its own by installing more centrifuges, churning out uranium at higher grades and increasing its stockpile of nuclear fuel. The decision to leave the old nuclear deal simply added to Trump’s problems.

                      Those faulty assumptions have continued to the present day. During the opening hours of the war, Trump, convinced by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu that killing Khamenei would cause chaos in the Iranian ranks, targeted the supreme leader’s office partly in the hope that the regime itself would be decapitated. Khamenei and some of his closest longtime advisers were killed during the first day of the conflict, which was no doubt a stellar military success on the tactical level.

                      However, the weakening of the Iranian regime that Trump and Netanyahu were betting on missed the mark. There were no mass demonstrations by the Iranian people against the regime, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps continued to fight even more ferociously, and Khamenei’s death did nothing to bring Iran’s negotiating position onto a more reasonable plane. Trump thought he could rerun the playbook in Venezuela, where taking out a dictator at the top would lead to a more pragmatic replacement. Nothing like that has occurred.

                      The Strait of Hormuz, the Middle East’s most important chokepoint for oil, natural gas and other exports, is the sight of another Trump miscalculation. Despite being warned that Iran could shut the waterway during any prospective war with the United States, the president apparently believed Tehran would capitulate before that scenario happened. Why he was so confident things would shake out as he predicted was a mystery.

                      Of course, we know how the story has proceeded. The Strait of Hormuz, through which about one-fifth of the world’s crude oil flows to market, is now essentially an Iranian-controlled lake. Shipping traffic has declined by an astounding 95% from prewar levels, increasing the price of crude by more than half over the last month and forcing the Trump administration to relax sanctions on Iranian crude to ensure adequate global supply. The Economist magazine found that Iran is now earning twice as much from its own oil sales as it did before the U.S. and Israeli bombs started falling, a direct consequence of Tehran’s decision to turn maritime traffic in the Persian Gulf on and off virtually at will.

                      Finally, Trump continues to assume that if he drops enough bombs on enough Iranian targets, kills enough senior-level Iranian officials and lobs enough rhetorical threats on Truth Social — the latest being a post on Monday threatening to wipe out Iran’s electricity infrastructure — Iran will capitulate out of fear. Yet we should keep in mind that the U.S. has already bombed Iran more than 10,000 times over the last month, and when you add Israel’s strikes to the equation, the number goes up even further.

                      Even so, Iran is determined to continue stringing out the war for as long as it takes to get Trump to quit out of economic desperation. Iran’s strategy could very well work. After all, the last thing Trump needs is even higher gas prices and inflation at a time when the midterm elections will hinge on which party is doing a better job tackling cost-of-living issues.

                      Being a leader sometimes means having the humility to admit when your previous belief system was incorrect. The other path is pressing on in your delusions, hoping you will eventually be vindicated.

                      RenaudaR Offline
                      RenaudaR Offline
                      Renauda
                      wrote last edited by
                      #1056

                      @taiwan_girl

                      Where did you find that op-Ed?

                      Elbows up!

                      jodiJ 1 Reply Last reply
                      • RenaudaR Renauda

                        @taiwan_girl

                        Where did you find that op-Ed?

                        jodiJ Offline
                        jodiJ Offline
                        jodi
                        wrote last edited by
                        #1057

                        @Renauda said:

                        @taiwan_girl

                        Where did you find that op-Ed?

                        Daniel DePetris, Chicago Tribune

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • RenaudaR Offline
                          RenaudaR Offline
                          Renauda
                          wrote last edited by
                          #1058

                          Thanks, Jodi

                          Elbows up!

                          1 Reply Last reply

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