Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky
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Ayup. The 2014 invasion was a complete abdication of our moral authority and the security of our guarantees by leadership. That was under that Obama guy. But Trump shower no inclination to fix it or to defend Ukraine during his term. In fact, the invasion of Crimea became sort of an afterthought. Which was equally no good. As a matter of fact, I don’t remember us even talking about Ukraine/Crimea much on the old forum, except for the occasional post by that Alberta Crude guy (whatever happened to him, btw?) and all of the ancillary stuff dealing with Hunter Biden, and Trump’s “Quid Pro Quo” deal with Zelenskyy. I do recall a general response to the US and UK’s abrogation of their security responsibility being along the lines of Ukraine being a hopelessly corrupt country and government, and we just let it slide.
So this has been a failure by both parties, and I am finding the whole moral outrage on both sides in the US to be disingenuous or willful ignorance and not accepting the faults of their chosen leaders. All the talk of Trump being Putin’s stooge from people ignoring Obama’s hot mic flip with Medved back in 2022, pointing to levels of collaboration that were expected and unknown. People screaming that Trump is on the take while ignoring the blatant corruption in the Biden family in Ukraine.
On the other side you have equal levels of willful ignorance, and an uncontrolled desire for change that’s overriding your sensibilities and common sense. What obligation does a current government have to treaties and agreements from 30 years ago? 50? 100? At the same time, if you disregard these treaties now, what assurances are you giving to your current and or future partners? This is a very complex and frustrating situation. I don’t know the answers, but I know they aren’t blind partisanship.
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Ayup. The 2014 invasion was a complete abdication of our moral authority and the security of our guarantees by leadership. That was under that Obama guy. But Trump shower no inclination to fix it or to defend Ukraine during his term. In fact, the invasion of Crimea became sort of an afterthought. Which was equally no good. As a matter of fact, I don’t remember us even talking about Ukraine/Crimea much on the old forum, except for the occasional post by that Alberta Crude guy (whatever happened to him, btw?) and all of the ancillary stuff dealing with Hunter Biden, and Trump’s “Quid Pro Quo” deal with Zelenskyy. I do recall a general response to the US and UK’s abrogation of their security responsibility being along the lines of Ukraine being a hopelessly corrupt country and government, and we just let it slide.
So this has been a failure by both parties, and I am finding the whole moral outrage on both sides in the US to be disingenuous or willful ignorance and not accepting the faults of their chosen leaders. All the talk of Trump being Putin’s stooge from people ignoring Obama’s hot mic flip with Medved back in 2022, pointing to levels of collaboration that were expected and unknown. People screaming that Trump is on the take while ignoring the blatant corruption in the Biden family in Ukraine.
On the other side you have equal levels of willful ignorance, and an uncontrolled desire for change that’s overriding your sensibilities and common sense. What obligation does a current government have to treaties and agreements from 30 years ago? 50? 100? At the same time, if you disregard these treaties now, what assurances are you giving to your current and or future partners? This is a very complex and frustrating situation. I don’t know the answers, but I know they aren’t blind partisanship.
@LuFins-Dad is there someone whose opinions I can listen to who champions the blind partisanship on the right? Obviously the naked rage and hysteria about Trump destroying civilization is anywhere, so I don’t need help finding that.
I posted some words from Rubio yesterday, is he on the insane partisanship side? Jeffrey Sachs? Mearsheimer? Glenn Greenwald? I’m trying to think of people who are contrarian as compared to, say, The Bullwark, or David Brooks.
Education is extremely important.
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Here's Tusi on Fox News. The Fox News host wonders why the Trump administration loves Putin so much. (And asks a bunch of vacuous questions along those lines, which Tulsi handles adequately IMO). Where should I go for the insane partisanship from the right?
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Hm, actually Tucker has been weaving narratives about how evil Ukraine is, I will grant that. I'm not sure I ever hear echoes of Tucker at his most fringe, anywhere other than Tucker, though.
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@LuFins-Dad is there someone whose opinions I can listen to who champions the blind partisanship on the right? Obviously the naked rage and hysteria about Trump destroying civilization is anywhere, so I don’t need help finding that.
I posted some words from Rubio yesterday, is he on the insane partisanship side? Jeffrey Sachs? Mearsheimer? Glenn Greenwald? I’m trying to think of people who are contrarian as compared to, say, The Bullwark, or David Brooks.
@Horace said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@LuFins-Dad is there someone whose opinions I can listen to who champions the blind partisanship on the right? Obviously the naked rage and hysteria about Trump destroying civilization is anywhere, so I don’t need help finding that.
I posted some words from Rubio yesterday, is he on the insane partisanship side? Jeffrey Sachs? Mearsheimer? Glenn Greenwald? I’m trying to think of people who are contrarian as compared to, say, The Bullwark, or David Brooks.
I would suggest Lindsay Graham’s reaction was a little over the top partisanship..
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I have difficulty balancing Lindsay Graham's one minute soundbite against the wave of shrieking TDS hysteria on the other side.
@Horace No question, the hysterical anti-Trump screeds are overwhelming. And I’m not implying that you are posting anything hyper partisan. Most of the reactions and analysis that you are posting has been very helpful and even handed. The interviews of Gabbard and Rubio are by necessity partisan, but that doesn’t discount their arguments.
So far, the guy that I tend to listen to a little more than most, Ben Shapiro, hasn’t directly addressed it. I think he’s waiting for Monday. But his XPosts have been filled with a bunch of reposts of some of the more hard core pro-Trump guys attacking Zelenskyy and practically fellating Trump and JD.
Again, personally I believe that both parties are at some fault, here, and I also believe there is some element of true misunderstanding as well as animosity from the past at play. That being said, what really concerns me about this was the sheer amateurish nature of the event. Absolutely everything should have been ironed out and nailed down before they were in front of any cameras and answering questions. The fact that it wasn’t makes it look minor league, or scripted.
The Brad
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They’re certainly happy to see what they saw last week. It really drives their messaging home. To wit, the US is dismantling the world order they created and no longer can be trusted by its traditional allies. Surely that message has been received loud and clear.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Seriously, though? It is absolutely astounding looking at the satellite maps and realizing just the sheer frigging size of Russia (what is it, 10% of the landmass of the world?) and the population is about 150M? And 80% of that is in an area roughly the size as the Easter Seaboard? I mean, north of Yakutsk, it’s just miles of nothing.
Yeah it’s insane how much land is there. Also, I know almost nothing about Russian history other than it seems intriguingly complex and am always blown away at the sheer number of solder/deaths in each major war. So many.
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@NobodySock said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@89th said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
Seriously, though? It is absolutely astounding looking at the satellite maps and realizing just the sheer frigging size of Russia (what is it, 10% of the landmass of the world?) and the population is about 150M? And 80% of that is in an area roughly the size as the Easter Seaboard? I mean, north of Yakutsk, it’s just miles of nothing.
Yeah it’s insane how much land is there. Also, I know almost nothing about Russian history other than it seems intriguingly complex and am always blown away at the sheer number of solder/deaths in each major war. So many.
Russian leaders have always treated their armies as expendable lives, they do not hold to the sanctity of life like western governments. I would imagine China would be the same. To be a Russian soldier in war, ultimately means you are going to be directed to expose your neck more often than the other side. And the very thought of disobeying orders that place one's units in suicidal firing lines is not considered due to the repercussions of such treason. It would be interesting to hear a true body count of these last 3 years. Both sides seem to exaggerate the numbers. That's my take anyways. I've played enough Call of Duty to know!
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@Horace No question, the hysterical anti-Trump screeds are overwhelming. And I’m not implying that you are posting anything hyper partisan. Most of the reactions and analysis that you are posting has been very helpful and even handed. The interviews of Gabbard and Rubio are by necessity partisan, but that doesn’t discount their arguments.
So far, the guy that I tend to listen to a little more than most, Ben Shapiro, hasn’t directly addressed it. I think he’s waiting for Monday. But his XPosts have been filled with a bunch of reposts of some of the more hard core pro-Trump guys attacking Zelenskyy and practically fellating Trump and JD.
Again, personally I believe that both parties are at some fault, here, and I also believe there is some element of true misunderstanding as well as animosity from the past at play. That being said, what really concerns me about this was the sheer amateurish nature of the event. Absolutely everything should have been ironed out and nailed down before they were in front of any cameras and answering questions. The fact that it wasn’t makes it look minor league, or scripted.
@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace No question, the hysterical anti-Trump screeds are overwhelming. And I’m not implying that you are posting anything hyper partisan.
I didn't think you were, I am just genuinely curious where the other side of this both sides are equal argument can actually be heard, beyond fringe internet corners which are never discussed in public but for the opposition making fun of them.
So far, the guy that I tend to listen to a little more than most, Ben Shapiro, hasn’t directly addressed it. I think he’s waiting for Monday. But his XPosts have been filled with a bunch of reposts of some of the more hard core pro-Trump guys attacking Zelenskyy and practically fellating Trump and JD.
I assume the daily wire crew will call Zelensky stupid or suicidal, and they will broach the forbidden topic of what America's true interests are, in keeping Russia from Ukraine. That topic is kept at bay in the public conversation by dismissing as inconceivably heartless, anybody not focused on the morality of the situation. But they won't be beholden to those rules as they talk about it, not in the face of Zelensky's behavior in the oval office.
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You’re just not paying attention. I think if you gave it 40ms of thought you could come up with the argument against appeasing land hungry autocrats even without opening a history book or rereading threads here.
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You’re just not paying attention. I think if you gave it 40ms of thought you could come up with the argument against appeasing land hungry autocrats even without opening a history book or rereading threads here.
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@Horace No question, the hysterical anti-Trump screeds are overwhelming. And I’m not implying that you are posting anything hyper partisan. Most of the reactions and analysis that you are posting has been very helpful and even handed. The interviews of Gabbard and Rubio are by necessity partisan, but that doesn’t discount their arguments.
So far, the guy that I tend to listen to a little more than most, Ben Shapiro, hasn’t directly addressed it. I think he’s waiting for Monday. But his XPosts have been filled with a bunch of reposts of some of the more hard core pro-Trump guys attacking Zelenskyy and practically fellating Trump and JD.
Again, personally I believe that both parties are at some fault, here, and I also believe there is some element of true misunderstanding as well as animosity from the past at play. That being said, what really concerns me about this was the sheer amateurish nature of the event. Absolutely everything should have been ironed out and nailed down before they were in front of any cameras and answering questions. The fact that it wasn’t makes it look minor league, or scripted.
@LuFins-Dad said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@Horace No question, the hysterical anti-Trump screeds are overwhelming. And I’m not implying that you are posting anything hyper partisan. Most of the reactions and analysis that you are posting has been very helpful and even handed. The interviews of Gabbard and Rubio are by necessity partisan, but that doesn’t discount their arguments.
So far, the guy that I tend to listen to a little more than most, Ben Shapiro, hasn’t directly addressed it. I think he’s waiting for Monday. But his XPosts have been filled with a bunch of reposts of some of the more hard core pro-Trump guys attacking Zelenskyy and practically fellating Trump and JD.
Again, personally I believe that both parties are at some fault, here, and I also believe there is some element of true misunderstanding as well as animosity from the past at play. That being said, what really concerns me about this was the sheer amateurish nature of the event. Absolutely everything should have been ironed out and nailed down before they were in front of any cameras and answering questions. The fact that it wasn’t makes it look minor league, or scripted.
Everything was nailed down. That's been reported. I've even mentioned it.
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They’re certainly happy to see what they saw last week. It really drives their messaging home. To wit, the US is dismantling the world order they created and no longer can be trusted by its traditional allies. Surely that message has been received loud and clear.
@jon-nyc said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
They’re certainly happy to see what they saw last week. It really drives their messaging home. To wit, the US is dismantling the world order they created and no longer can be trusted by its traditional allies. Surely that message has been received loud and clear.
As I said in another thread as a hypothetic, which I hope does not come true.
Currently: President Trump cuts foreign aid, shrinks expenses of government.
Everybody says YAY!! Greatest president ever.50-100 years from now: China (or another country) steps into vacuum created. Starts to "box" US out of world economy. US economy goes into long term decline.
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@jon-nyc said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
They’re certainly happy to see what they saw last week. It really drives their messaging home. To wit, the US is dismantling the world order they created and no longer can be trusted by its traditional allies. Surely that message has been received loud and clear.
As I said in another thread as a hypothetic, which I hope does not come true.
Currently: President Trump cuts foreign aid, shrinks expenses of government.
Everybody says YAY!! Greatest president ever.50-100 years from now: China (or another country) steps into vacuum created. Starts to "box" US out of world economy. US economy goes into long term decline.
@taiwan_girl said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
@jon-nyc said in Gifts for Putin, Demands for Zelensky:
They’re certainly happy to see what they saw last week. It really drives their messaging home. To wit, the US is dismantling the world order they created and no longer can be trusted by its traditional allies. Surely that message has been received loud and clear.
As I said in another thread as a hypothetic, which I hope does not come true.
Currently: President Trump cuts foreign aid, shrinks expenses of government.
Everybody says YAY!! Greatest president ever.50-100 years from now: China (or another country) steps into vacuum created. Starts to "box" US out of world economy. US economy goes into long term decline.
Let's face some very hard facts. Uncle Sugar is so deep in debt, the debt payment is equal to the world police, er, military budget.
So if you are expecting the U.S. to put water on every blazing conflict in the world, I've got news for you:
John Wayne's dead and the calvary ain't coming.
The U.S. is going to have a leaner, more lethal military, but it cannot afford to project power as it has since WW2. The country will coalesce it's defensive plans into what benefits our nation the most, at the least cost of blood and treasure.
Can China "box" the U.S. in? Not anytime soon, I don't think. I think the U.S. is going to place a lot of emphasis on Japan, India and Australia, but I'm not sure about Taiwan or the Philippines, as they try to keep the Chinese in check.
As for Europe, something I heard that I'm not certain about...If you ranked all European countries individually against Mississippi, Mississippi is worth more. That might be ludicrous, but it underscores that it's a long time since 1945, Europe has rebuilt and they need to take care of themselves.
That's not isolationism, rather it's a return to fiscal responsibility and some international common sense.
