Trump loses in NY
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@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
@jon-nyc said in Trump loses in NY:
Did the prosecution show who was defrauded? My understanding is that banks signed off on the loans and were repaid.
Does the law require that? Does fraud require monetary loss or is the deception sufficient?
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Maybe this:
Fraudulent misrepresentation is a tort claim, typically arising in the field of contract law, that occurs when a defendant makes a intentional or reckless misrepresentation of fact or opinion with the intention to coerce a party into action or inaction on the basis of that misrepresentation.
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@Mik said in Trump loses in NY:
I will reserve judgement until the banks who were either grossly negligent or a willing participant are charged as well.
I’d imagine Trump had a history of paying back his loans and/or the banks were duped by Trump’s golden business man reputation, which as we now know has seen a LONG trail of bankrupt Trump brands behind it and as this trial points out, a history of saying things like his penthouse was 30,000 square feet instead of the real 11,000. Or that it was worth 5x more than what it was, or with maralago, inflating its value from like 70 million to 400 million. Apparently he did this with over a dozen properties over the years…at some point, you gotta pay for the fraud.
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@89th said in Trump loses in NY:
@Mik said in Trump loses in NY:
I will reserve judgement until the banks who were either grossly negligent or a willing participant are charged as well.
I’d imagine Trump had a history of paying back his loans and/or the banks were duped by Trump’s golden business man reputation, which as we now know has seen a LONG trail of bankrupt Trump brands behind it and as this trial points out, a history of saying things like his penthouse was 30,000 square feet instead of the real 11,000. Or that it was worth 5x more than what it was, or with maralago, inflating its value from like 70 million to 400 million. Apparently he did this with over a dozen properties over the years…at some point, you gotta pay for the fraud.
Not going to discuss the Penthouse, because I honestly don’t know, but Mar-A-Lago is EASILY worth $500 Million in property, alone.
I’m no Trump fan, but facts are facts.
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Donald Trump’s tax broker was forced to admit to authorities in 2020 that Mar-a-Lago had a market value of just $27 million — not the $517 million claimed in other documents, trial evidence revealed Monday.
Trump, 77, also allegedly boasted of having a net worth of up to $5 billion — likely more than double what he really had — to land the coveted lease to a New York City golf course in 2010, according to documents.
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89th, look at the properties surrounding Mar-A-Lago -
$45 Million, $50 Million, $25 Million… and these are properties that aren’t on the ocean front. And aren’t 1/30th the size.
$500 Million is probably undervalued.
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One caveat is that Mar-a-lago is unique. It's zoned as a social club, not a residential plot (which I'm assuming the other properties are).
When Trump was in financial trouble in the 90's, he tried to get the town to rezone it to residential plots but they refused. They did agree to let him rezone the hotel to a social club.
So - it's a unique property. His brand has to factor into the value somehow. But no comps on it really as it is zoned.
From what I read - Trump's rationale for the high appraisal is the uniqueness (I think he compared it to the Mona Lisa).
I don't really know how you objectively appraise something like this, TBH....
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@xenon said in Trump loses in NY:
One caveat is that Mar-a-lago is unique. It's zoned as a social club, not a residential plot (which I'm assuming the other properties are).
When Trump was in financial trouble in the 90's, he tried to get the town to rezone it to residential plots but they refused. They did agree to let him rezone the hotel to a social club.
So - it's a unique property. His brand has to factor into the value somehow. But no comps on it really as it is zoned.
From what I read - Trump's rationale for the high appraisal is the uniqueness (I think he compared it to the Mona Lisa).
I don't really know how you objectively appraise something like this, TBH....
Consider the fact that it’s probably the proximity to Mar-A-Lago that raises the property values of the residential properties around it… But $500 Million? Easy.
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@jon-nyc said in Trump loses in NY:
@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
Did the judge actually show how they defrauded anyone?
Does the law require that? Are judges supposed to show fraud? What’s the prosecutor supposed to do?
You mean the " Get Trump" law? The one that was specifically passed to prosecute him and sunsets in the next year or so?
You do realize, the Special Prosecutor and his charges, the New York stuff and the Atlanta case were all filed withing six months of Trump announcing he was running? And if I'm not mistaken, every prosecutor has talked with the Biden Whitehouse.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@Jolly said in Trump loses in NY:
@jon-nyc said in Trump loses in NY:
@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
Did the judge actually show how they defrauded anyone?
Does the law require that? Are judges supposed to show fraud? What’s the prosecutor supposed to do?
You mean the " Get Trump" law? The one that was specifically passed to prosecute him and sunsets in the next year or so?
They must have decided to “get Trump” when he was 8.
The $355 million penalty that a New York judge ordered Donald J. Trump to pay in his civil fraud trial might seem steep in a case with no victim calling for redress and no star witness pointing the finger at Mr. Trump. But a little-known 70-year-old state law made the punishment possible.
The law, often referred to by its shorthand, 63(12), which stems from its place in New York’s rule book, is a regulatory bazooka for the state’s attorney general, Letitia James. Her office has used it to aim at a wide range of corporate giants: the oil company Exxon Mobil, the tobacco brand Juul and the pharma executive Martin Shkreli.
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@LuFins-Dad Oh I don’t doubt that the property is worth more than $27 million. Clearly. But it seems Trump claimed it was worth 20x more than what he should’ve claimed based on what he said it was worth in his 2020 taxes, or something like that. You can’t tell Uncle Sam it’s worth $25 million and then tell a bank it’s worth $500 million.
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From what I've read previously, New York law (very specifically) does not require the proof of damages or injury for fraud to exist, merely the intent to deceive in the manner in which Trump misrepresented the value of his properties. There's obviously a potential for harm. In some ways, it would be similar for someone to enter a bank, hand a note to the teller to hand over the money as this is a holdup - then be stopped by the guard before existing the building - per Trump, "no harm, no foul - as the bank lost no funds" - right? Alternatively, when did Bernie Madoff's crime occur - when he misrepresented himself or when he couldn't pay the money he owed?
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@jon-nyc said in Trump loses in NY:
They must have decided to “get Trump” when he was 8.
I'm sure he was an unusually annoying 8 year old, so that's actually a possibility.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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In laying the foundation for his sweeping decision against former President Donald Trump, Judge Arthur Engoron observed that “this is a venial sin, not a mortal sin.” Yet, at $355 million, one would think that Engoron had found Trump to be the source of Original Sin.
Undervaluing and overvaluing property is a longstanding practice in New York real estate. The forms submitted by the Trump organization cautioned the banks to do their own estimates and the loans were paid in full and on time. Yet, the New York law used by James is a curiosity because it does not actually require a victim. Indeed, everyone can make ample profits and still allow for an investigation into “repeated fraudulent or illegal acts.”
State courts tend to get a significant amount of deference in the interpretation of their own laws. After all, if New York wants to turn Wall Street into a remake of “The Hunger Games,” it has only itself to blame as other businesses flee the state.
The impact on New York business is likely to be dire. New York is already viewed as a hostile business environment, with the top end of its tax base literally heading south as taxes and crime rises. This draconian award is only going to deepen concerns over the arbitrary application of the law by figures like James, who previously sought to disband the National Rifle Association. (She has shown less interest in cracking down on liberal organizations like Black Lives Matter or the National Action Network of Al Sharpton despite their own major financial scandals.)It is doubtful Trump will end up as the same solitary figure wearing worn-out clothes before the Bronx County Criminal Court clutching a binder of legal papers (as in "Bonfire of the Vanities"). But you do not have to feel sorry or even sympathetic for Trump to see this award as obscene. The appeal will test the New York legal system to see if other judges can do what Judge Engoron found so difficult: set aside their feelings about Trump.
New York is one of our oldest and most distinguished bars. It has long resisted those who sought to use the law to pursue political opponents and unpopular figures. It will now be tested to see if those values transcend even Trump.
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@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
Have any other cases of fraud like this been tried in New York?
I'm sure there are fraud cases where misrepresentation occurred, but probably not too many where there are no proven losses. "I may have not come to a full legal stop at the sign, but there was no traffic at the time."
