Trump loses in NY
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@jon-nyc said in Trump loses in NY:
@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
Did the judge actually show how they defrauded anyone?
Does the law require that? Are judges supposed to show fraud? What’s the prosecutor supposed to do?
You mean the " Get Trump" law? The one that was specifically passed to prosecute him and sunsets in the next year or so?
You do realize, the Special Prosecutor and his charges, the New York stuff and the Atlanta case were all filed withing six months of Trump announcing he was running? And if I'm not mistaken, every prosecutor has talked with the Biden Whitehouse.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@Jolly said in Trump loses in NY:
@jon-nyc said in Trump loses in NY:
@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
Did the judge actually show how they defrauded anyone?
Does the law require that? Are judges supposed to show fraud? What’s the prosecutor supposed to do?
You mean the " Get Trump" law? The one that was specifically passed to prosecute him and sunsets in the next year or so?
They must have decided to “get Trump” when he was 8.
The $355 million penalty that a New York judge ordered Donald J. Trump to pay in his civil fraud trial might seem steep in a case with no victim calling for redress and no star witness pointing the finger at Mr. Trump. But a little-known 70-year-old state law made the punishment possible.
The law, often referred to by its shorthand, 63(12), which stems from its place in New York’s rule book, is a regulatory bazooka for the state’s attorney general, Letitia James. Her office has used it to aim at a wide range of corporate giants: the oil company Exxon Mobil, the tobacco brand Juul and the pharma executive Martin Shkreli.
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@LuFins-Dad Oh I don’t doubt that the property is worth more than $27 million. Clearly. But it seems Trump claimed it was worth 20x more than what he should’ve claimed based on what he said it was worth in his 2020 taxes, or something like that. You can’t tell Uncle Sam it’s worth $25 million and then tell a bank it’s worth $500 million.
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From what I've read previously, New York law (very specifically) does not require the proof of damages or injury for fraud to exist, merely the intent to deceive in the manner in which Trump misrepresented the value of his properties. There's obviously a potential for harm. In some ways, it would be similar for someone to enter a bank, hand a note to the teller to hand over the money as this is a holdup - then be stopped by the guard before existing the building - per Trump, "no harm, no foul - as the bank lost no funds" - right? Alternatively, when did Bernie Madoff's crime occur - when he misrepresented himself or when he couldn't pay the money he owed?
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@jon-nyc said in Trump loses in NY:
They must have decided to “get Trump” when he was 8.
I'm sure he was an unusually annoying 8 year old, so that's actually a possibility.
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"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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In laying the foundation for his sweeping decision against former President Donald Trump, Judge Arthur Engoron observed that “this is a venial sin, not a mortal sin.” Yet, at $355 million, one would think that Engoron had found Trump to be the source of Original Sin.
Undervaluing and overvaluing property is a longstanding practice in New York real estate. The forms submitted by the Trump organization cautioned the banks to do their own estimates and the loans were paid in full and on time. Yet, the New York law used by James is a curiosity because it does not actually require a victim. Indeed, everyone can make ample profits and still allow for an investigation into “repeated fraudulent or illegal acts.”
State courts tend to get a significant amount of deference in the interpretation of their own laws. After all, if New York wants to turn Wall Street into a remake of “The Hunger Games,” it has only itself to blame as other businesses flee the state.
The impact on New York business is likely to be dire. New York is already viewed as a hostile business environment, with the top end of its tax base literally heading south as taxes and crime rises. This draconian award is only going to deepen concerns over the arbitrary application of the law by figures like James, who previously sought to disband the National Rifle Association. (She has shown less interest in cracking down on liberal organizations like Black Lives Matter or the National Action Network of Al Sharpton despite their own major financial scandals.)It is doubtful Trump will end up as the same solitary figure wearing worn-out clothes before the Bronx County Criminal Court clutching a binder of legal papers (as in "Bonfire of the Vanities"). But you do not have to feel sorry or even sympathetic for Trump to see this award as obscene. The appeal will test the New York legal system to see if other judges can do what Judge Engoron found so difficult: set aside their feelings about Trump.
New York is one of our oldest and most distinguished bars. It has long resisted those who sought to use the law to pursue political opponents and unpopular figures. It will now be tested to see if those values transcend even Trump.
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@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
Have any other cases of fraud like this been tried in New York?
I'm sure there are fraud cases where misrepresentation occurred, but probably not too many where there are no proven losses. "I may have not come to a full legal stop at the sign, but there was no traffic at the time."
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I don't like weaponization of government to screw over people for the sake of it, but DJT made a career of weaponizing the legal system against small businesses - not paying bills, threatening lawsuits, etc. so there is some Orwellian justice to this. Rosebud.
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Questions:
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Why was there no jury? I've read conflicting reports that Trump's legal team decided not to request a jury trial and other saying that the judge wouldn't allow it (I'm skeptical of that claim).
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Is it true that this statute was enacted after Trump announced his candidacy for the 2024 election?
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Has this ever been prosecuted before in such a manner?
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As Turley comments, if, as the judge said, the sin is "venial," why is the punishment almost mortal? Will this be reversed on appeal? Trump, in order to appeal, has to put up bond in the amount of the judgment. Does he have that kind of cash? Can he put up something other than cash (Mar-a-Lago?) as collateral?
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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@kluurs said in Trump loses in NY:
I don't like weaponization of government to screw over people for the sake of it, but DJT made a career of weaponizing the legal system against small businesses - not paying bills, threatening lawsuits, etc. so there is some Orwellian justice to this. Rosebud.
Lot of difference between an individual and the power of the State. A lot.
Otherwise, fuck Blind Justice.
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Companies and Wall St. won't be abandoning NY in droves. The simple fact is this was a targeted political attack. Almost all of these companies and Wall St. have either already been taken over by this ideology or have already capitulated. They can shrug, say "glad it's not me" and move on.
Me/rry/Christmas
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@LuFins-Dad said in Trump loses in NY:
The simple fact is this was a targeted political attack.
And that is simply wrong. Maybe gratifying to some in the short term, but detrimental to all in the long term.
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@George-K said in Trump loses in NY:
Questions:
- Why was there no jury? I've read conflicting reports that Trump's legal team decided not to request a jury trial and other saying that the judge wouldn't allow it (I'm skeptical of that claim).
**>
Trump's attorney screwed up - failed to check the box is what I've read.**
- Is it true that this statute was enacted after Trump announced his candidacy for the 2024 election?
**New York Executive Law § 63(12), sometimes called simply "63 12" or "63(12)",[2] is a New York law that gives the Attorney General of New York broad powers[3] to investigate and prosecute cases of alleged civil fraud.[2][4] Due to its broad definitions,[5] section 63(12) provides the AG with far-reaching powers to issue subpoenas, as well as low legal hurdles to do so.[6] The law was passed in 1956, while Jacob Javits was attorney general.[7][1] It was invoked in the New York civil investigation of The Trump Organization.[8]
There was some clarification made in 1965. **
Further - the AG initiated this case in 2022 - so, prior to Trump's announced candidacy.
Per the judgment....
Defendants argument is to no avail, as none of plaintiff's causes of action requires that it demonstrate reliance. Instead, plaintiff must merely show that defendants intended to commit the fraud. Reliance is not a requisite element of either Executive Law§63(12) or of any of the alleged Penal Law violations.- Has this ever been prosecuted before in such a manner?
Have to wait for someone to do that assessment.
- As Turley comments, if, as the judge said, the sin is "venial," why is the punishment almost mortal? Will this be reversed on appeal? Trump, in order to appeal, has to put up bond in the amount of the judgment. Does he have that kind of cash? Can he put up something other than cash (Mar-a-Lago?) as collateral?
From a quick scan of the judgment, it looks like they estimated the value of the "ill gotten gains" from the misrepresentation along with interest.
- Why was there no jury? I've read conflicting reports that Trump's legal team decided not to request a jury trial and other saying that the judge wouldn't allow it (I'm skeptical of that claim).
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@Mik said in Trump loses in NY:
If it can happen to him.....
But it won't.
Could it happen to Soros? They own real estate and conduct business in NY. Think they've ever overvalued holdings in financing and acquisitions? I bet they have. So yeah, it could happen to them.
Think Letitia or her successors will be going after him/them? It ain't happen.
It could happen to anybody, but if you're on the left ide of history in New York, it won't.
