Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?
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@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I still don’t understand what anyone is really protesting.
A lot of people think the cops that killed her need to be arrested. Personally I've never immersed myself in the details enough to know if I agree.
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Well, the idiot that runs FNAC said his guys were "highly trained".
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@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I still don’t understand what anyone is really protesting.
A lot of people think the cops that killed her need to be arrested. Personally I've never immersed myself in the details enough to know if I agree.
It’s not pretty. She died needlessly. Not sure who should get arrested but it’s likely the person who faked the rationale for the high risk no knock warrant.
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The bottom line, as far as I know, is the cops executed a warrant in the middle of the night, were allegedly shot at by Breonna’s boyfriend, and the police returned fire, resulting in Breonna being shot.
In other words, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
Was it the fault of the no-knock warrant? Likely, but I can see why those can be needed.
Was it the fault of the person who gave that address as connected with crimes? Maybe, depending on how much of a deception it was.
But as mad as I would be if this happened to my family, i don’t see the cops in the wrong, nor do I envy that ridiculously risky job.
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@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
In other words, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
The individual cops who executed that warrant probably did not do anything wrong, and the police department can say with a straight face that those individual cops followed all established department procedures.
But the “no knock warrant” itself, or at least the application of it, was wrong — Breonna Taylor died needlessly. The police department that botched the Breonna Taylor incident recognized it and suspended “no knock warrant” as a practice. Many other towns/PDs have since made the same decision.
Nae, there is something wrong. If all the individual cops who executed the Breonna Taylor “no knock warrant” really “followed all established department procedures” and still Breonna Taylor died needlessly, there is something wrong with “established department procedures.” Keep in mind also that this is not the first or only “no knock warrant” gone bad, so that “something wrong” maybe systemic.
That needs to be thoroughly examined and fixed, for the sake of all people, including the cops themselves.
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Nae, there is something wrong. If all the individual cops who executed the Breonna Taylor “no knock warrant” really got “followed all established department procedures” and still Breonna Taylor died needlessly, there is something wrong with “established department procedures.”
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
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@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
Agreed, but in specifics, I can see why they could be needed...specifically in regards to the destruction of evidence upon door knock.
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@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
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@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
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@Jolly said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
I get that they can be useful, it just seems like they’re too high risk.
I mean, what would happen if somebody broke into your house in the middle of the night? What are the odds bullets would fly?
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@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Jolly said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
I get that they can be useful, it just seems like they’re too high risk.
I mean, what would happen if somebody broke into your house in the middle of the night? What are the odds bullets would fly?
More like buckshot.
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@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
Let’s take you back further in time.
There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.
You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.
I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
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@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
Let’s take you back further in time.
There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.
You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.
I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
Let's take you into the future....The government has decided that the First Amendment does not apply to hate speech, as decided by a Supreme Court that had three Justices appointed by Joe Biden. The move was applauded by the junior senator from New York, AOC. The government will now dictate what constitutes hate speech and will punish people according to the law. Of course, there was nothing wrong in this.
What a wonderful game of mish-mashed cherry picking we can have!
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@Axtremus I am simply referring to the protests...what are they trying to accomplish? Most demands seem to be to arrest the cops. Clearly this isn’t going to happen, and they’ve already stopped the no-knock warrant policies.
But to your point, even under your comparisons, I stand by my position they didn’t do anything wrong. If I were a cop, and I was serving a warrant and when I entered the home I was shot at, I would shoot back. Case closed.
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@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
I doubt you'd find many people arguing vigorously in favor of these sorts of warrants. The question is whether to punish these cops, as 89th notes. So while you're courageously making a stand for virtue, how about you let us know whether you'd vote to convict these officers and send them to prison?
