Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 03:37 last edited by
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 03:37 last edited by
@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
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@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 03:41 last edited by@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
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@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 03:43 last edited by@Jolly said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
I get that they can be useful, it just seems like they’re too high risk.
I mean, what would happen if somebody broke into your house in the middle of the night? What are the odds bullets would fly?
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 03:44 last edited by
Just a bloodthirsty mob, drunk with power. The ability to destroy another life without repercussion is viscerally thrilling in that it establishes power.
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@Jolly said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
I get that they can be useful, it just seems like they’re too high risk.
I mean, what would happen if somebody broke into your house in the middle of the night? What are the odds bullets would fly?
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 03:46 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Jolly said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
I don't like them and they should be like Bill Clinton described abortion, because there are some cases with some very dangerous people, where you need to execute a no-knock.
My wife's cousin runs a U.S. Marshals fugitive squad. They prefer to isolate someone and take them down with a minimum of problems...A stairwell is a nice place to grab someone, for example. But sometimes, you have no choice. You go through a locked door. And if you see an armed person on the other side, you take care of the threat.
There are some people you simply cannot knock on the door and announce yourself.
I get that they can be useful, it just seems like they’re too high risk.
I mean, what would happen if somebody broke into your house in the middle of the night? What are the odds bullets would fly?
More like buckshot.
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@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 05:28 last edited by@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
Let’s take you back further in time.
There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.
You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.
I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
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@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
Let’s take you back further in time.
There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.
You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.
I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 10:44 last edited by Jolly@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
Let’s take you back further in time.
There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.
You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.
I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
Let's take you into the future....The government has decided that the First Amendment does not apply to hate speech, as decided by a Supreme Court that had three Justices appointed by Joe Biden. The move was applauded by the junior senator from New York, AOC. The government will now dictate what constitutes hate speech and will punish people according to the law. Of course, there was nothing wrong in this.
What a wonderful game of mish-mashed cherry picking we can have!
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 10:54 last edited by
@Axtremus I am simply referring to the protests...what are they trying to accomplish? Most demands seem to be to arrest the cops. Clearly this isn’t going to happen, and they’ve already stopped the no-knock warrant policies.
But to your point, even under your comparisons, I stand by my position they didn’t do anything wrong. If I were a cop, and I was serving a warrant and when I entered the home I was shot at, I would shoot back. Case closed.
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@89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.
- Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
- Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?
Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.
Agreed.
I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.
I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.
Let’s take you back further in time.
There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.
You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.
I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 14:50 last edited by@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
I doubt you'd find many people arguing vigorously in favor of these sorts of warrants. The question is whether to punish these cops, as 89th notes. So while you're courageously making a stand for virtue, how about you let us know whether you'd vote to convict these officers and send them to prison?
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 15:59 last edited by
@jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.
It's part of the militarization of the police that has gone a bit far.
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@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
I doubt you'd find many people arguing vigorously in favor of these sorts of warrants. The question is whether to punish these cops, as 89th notes. So while you're courageously making a stand for virtue, how about you let us know whether you'd vote to convict these officers and send them to prison?
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 20:44 last edited by@Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”
I doubt you'd find many people arguing vigorously in favor of these sorts of warrants. The question is whether to punish these cops, as 89th notes. So while you're courageously making a stand for virtue, how about you let us know whether you'd vote to convict these officers and send them to prison?
Again it is not the cops fault. Who ever approved the very risky no knock warrant is the person who should be the candidate for arrest. It is asserted that person fudged the facts.
When the cops entered and where shot at all bets are off. Duh.
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 20:56 last edited by
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
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I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 21:03 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 21:07 last edited by Doctor Phibes@Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.
No I didn't. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.
Of course, this isn't about me and what I think, but nice try.
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@Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.
No I didn't. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.
Of course, this isn't about me and what I think, but nice try.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 22:07 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.
No I didn't. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.
Of course, this isn't about me and what I think, but nice try.
It’s not about you I agree. Maybe the media was appalled by the raid, I just don’t remember that being the narrative.
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 22:16 last edited by
I don't actually watch American news media. If I want to be condescended to, I try to at least have it be done by somebody who isn't even dumber than I am.
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wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 22:39 last edited by
Here's my take on this...
No knock warrants are needed ONLY when you have an extremely dangerous criminal to catch, you are 100% certain he's inside, 100% certain that any advance notice, even as little as a knock on the door, could result in someone's death. This case seems to not meet those requirements, to say the least. I don't know enough of the details to know why it happened, but I do know that it has taken far too long for anything to be done about it. This makes it look like the police are dragging their feet. People in that community have a right to be upset.
But there are ways to go about this legally and civilly. Having a bunch of hostile, angry at the world black guys show up carrying semiautomatic rifles is not one of those ways. They are the equivalent of a black KKK. If they didn't realize that by doing this they were literally inviting a race war with a group just like them only white, they're stupid.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 22:59 last edited by@Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.
Actually I did. I thought they had actually captured that arch villian, The Penguin!
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I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
wrote on 26 Jul 2020, 23:20 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:
I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.
Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.
