Hamas attacks Israel
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:49 last edited by
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Interesting tid bits.
The people providing the Palestinian numbers are the same people that claimed 500 people in a hospital were killed when it blew up from an Israeli rocket.
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:51 last edited by
And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
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@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Interesting tid bits.
The people providing the Palestinian numbers are the same people that claimed 500 people in a hospital were killed when it blew up from an Israeli rocket.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:52 last edited byYou don’t know that.
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And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:54 last edited byDid people take my previous post as trying to make some moral
point?I just thought the details were interesting. Did you know they’re still finding Hamas fighters in Israel?
The number of Palestinian displaced is on the order one would expect given the order to evacuate half the country. But did you realize there were 300k displaced Israelis? That’s a bigger number than I would have guessed.
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And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:58 last edited by@George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:
And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
Rand's comments were spot on.
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You don’t know that.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:58 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You don’t know that.
Sure we do.
“Palestinian Health Officials” https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/latest-death-toll-in-israel-and-gaza-eoVPFI8WcXN0mzIR73pY
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — A massive blast rocked a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded and other Palestinians seeking shelter Tuesday, killing hundreds of people, the Hamas-run Health Ministry said. Hamas blamed an Israeli airstrike, while the Israeli military said the hospital was hit by a rocket misfired by Palestinian militants.
The health ministry said at least 500 people had been killed.
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:01 last edited by
You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
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Did people take my previous post as trying to make some moral
point?I just thought the details were interesting. Did you know they’re still finding Hamas fighters in Israel?
The number of Palestinian displaced is on the order one would expect given the order to evacuate half the country. But did you realize there were 300k displaced Israelis? That’s a bigger number than I would have guessed.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:03 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Did people take my previous post as trying to make some moral point?
No, I don't think that you were trying to make a moral point.
The tweet was. To wit:
"-1500+ Palestinian children killed in Gaza
-750K+ Pals displaced
-300K Istaelis (sic) displaced"I don't dispute the facts (though, like @LuFins-Dad I question the source of the Gazan numbers)), but framing in this fashion is certainly making a moral point, imo.
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You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:04 last edited by George K@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
Fair point. Until the source of the estimates is revealed, however, I'll be skeptical.
ETA: This account also posted this.
"There has to be a way to call for a ceasefire and ensure safety of Palestinians while also addressing the need to debilitate Hamas and restore safety for Israelis, while at the same time demanding a solution that ends the siege/occupation of OPT."
OPT: "Occupied Palestinian Territories?"
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You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:06 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
The Palestinian numbers match exactly what many news outlets are reporting, citing Palestinian Health Ministry
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:07 last edited by jon-nyc
Are you really that skeptical? The numbers more or less pass the sniff test.
750k displaced could be a bit high, but you have to remember it’s not just northern Gazans who evacuated, there are plenty of others who’s homes have been destroyed.
And ~3k civilian deaths is in the ballpark of what I’d expect after 15 days of more or less continuous airstrikes. I’d be surprised if it were much lower than that.
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Are you really that skeptical? The numbers more or less pass the sniff test.
750k displaced could be a bit high, but you have to remember it’s not just northern Gazans who evacuated, there are plenty of others who’s homes have been destroyed.
And ~3k civilian deaths is in the ballpark of what I’d expect after 15 days of more or less continuous airstrikes. I’d be surprised if it were much lower than that.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:24 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Are you really that skeptical? The numbers more or less pass the sniff test.
750k displaced could be a bit high, but you have to remember it’s not just northern Gazans who evacuated, there are plenty of others who’s homes have been destroyed.
And ~3k civilian deaths is in the ballpark of what I’d expect after 15 days of bombing. I’d be surprised if it were much lower than that.
I’m not being skeptical, the cites are all over the media. The numbers/fatalities are being reported by the Ministry of Health, there are no other sources. https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/hostilities-gaza-strip-and-israel-flash-update-15
That is the only source for numbers, and there have been several reports concerning them inflating numbers as well as hiding Hamas deaths as civilian…
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 15:06 last edited by
By the way, how many of the 1500 children were actually killed by Hamas rockets that misfired? We know that in addition to the hospital, at least 500 rockets launched out of Gaza misfired and landed in occupied Gaza… And those buildings and places hit did not have a warning to evacuate.
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 15:13 last edited by
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@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
In 5 minutes? Best of luck.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 15:26 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
In 5 minutes? Best of luck.
Is there a reason you cite “5 minutes” rather than “5 seconds” or “5 hours” or “5 days”?
Is that enough to evacuate the children, the elderly, and the infirm?
If there is enough time to evacuate the children, the elderly, and the infirm (think moving all from the orphanages, schools, old folks homes, hospital patients, including the ICUs and the maternity wards), would there not be enough time to move equipments, weapons, communications gear, etc.?
If there is not enough time to evacuate the children, the elderly, and the infirm, is the warning then merely performative PR?
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 15:31 last edited by
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By the way, how many of the 1500 children were actually killed by Hamas rockets that misfired? We know that in addition to the hospital, at least 500 rockets launched out of Gaza misfired and landed in occupied Gaza… And those buildings and places hit did not have a warning to evacuate.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 16:03 last edited by jon-nyc@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
By the way, how many of the 1500 children were actually killed by Hamas rockets that misfired? We know that in addition to the hospital, at least 500 rockets launched out of Gaza misfired and landed in occupied Gaza… And those buildings and places hit did not have a warning to evacuate.
The number she reported wasn't pretending to differentiate.
Serious question - wouldn't you expect a few thousand civilian deaths in 15 days of near continuous airstrikes and off target Hamas missiles? Even given the care the IAF is taking?
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@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
By the way, how many of the 1500 children were actually killed by Hamas rockets that misfired? We know that in addition to the hospital, at least 500 rockets launched out of Gaza misfired and landed in occupied Gaza… And those buildings and places hit did not have a warning to evacuate.
The number she reported wasn't pretending to differentiate.
Serious question - wouldn't you expect a few thousand civilian deaths in 15 days of near continuous airstrikes and off target Hamas missiles? Even given the care the IAF is taking?
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 16:09 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
By the way, how many of the 1500 children were actually killed by Hamas rockets that misfired? We know that in addition to the hospital, at least 500 rockets launched out of Gaza misfired and landed in occupied Gaza… And those buildings and places hit did not have a warning to evacuate.
The number she reported wasn't pretending to differentiate.
Serious question - wouldn't you expect a few thousand civilian deaths in 15 days of near continuous airstrikes and off target Hamas missiles? Even given the care the IAF is taking?
That seems very possible. It also seems possible to be more, and possibly less. That really isn’t enough information to make a judgement on. The information we do have supplied is 1500 children. That information is supplied by the Hamas Health Ministry that has been caught inflating numbers in the past. So is it reasonable to cast some doubt on their numbers?
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 16:52 last edited by
If that’s who came from then sure. But the numbers don’t seem ridiculously high.
And the expectation would be children would be 50% of civilian casualties given the demographics of the place.
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If that’s who came from then sure. But the numbers don’t seem ridiculously high.
And the expectation would be children would be 50% of civilian casualties given the demographics of the place.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 17:02 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
And the expectation would be children would be 50% of civilian casualties given the demographics of the place.
True. However "children" is a pretty fluid term.
A 16 year old child carjacked a car in Chicago the other night. So did a 14 year old child.
"Culture..."