Hamas attacks Israel
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Apropos that, is there any other conflict in the history of warfare where warnings are distributed before an attack?
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 11:26 last edited by Doctor Phibes@bachophile said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Apropos that, is there any other conflict in the history of warfare where warnings are distributed before an attack?
Oddly enough, the IRA used to sometimes phone in a warning before setting off a bomb. They even had passwords so that the police would know which ones were genuine.
(Just to be clear I’m not comparing the IDF with the IRA, or this conflict with NI. Also, they would occasionally plant a second one nearby with no warning)
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 12:08 last edited by
I don’t mean what’s written in the rules. I mean what’s done in practice. Regularly.
I don’t think it was done during Vietnam, Korea, or WWII. not sure about Iraq or Afghanistan -
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 12:09 last edited by
Bastogne is another famous warning, although it is more famous for the reply.
But maybe threats between combatants don’t count, I’m sure you can think of many.
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@Horace said in Hamas attacks Israel:
As I understand it, Palestinian civilians are given an opportunity to evacuate before bombings.
Presumably the warning for the civilians to evacuate would also reach the ears of the terrorists, militants, rapists, murderers, etc. who can also choose to evacuate along with the civilians. Not sure how that would separate the civilians from the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 12:49 last edited by@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@Horace said in Hamas attacks Israel:
As I understand it, Palestinian civilians are given an opportunity to evacuate before bombings.
Presumably the warning for the civilians to evacuate would also reach the ears of the terrorists, militants, rapists, murderers, etc. who can also choose to evacuate along with the civilians. Not sure how that would separate the civilians from the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers.
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc… The purpose is to eliminate these assets for the opposition before ground operations begin, where IDF forces can be more discriminate.
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@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@Horace said in Hamas attacks Israel:
As I understand it, Palestinian civilians are given an opportunity to evacuate before bombings.
Presumably the warning for the civilians to evacuate would also reach the ears of the terrorists, militants, rapists, murderers, etc. who can also choose to evacuate along with the civilians. Not sure how that would separate the civilians from the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers.
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc… The purpose is to eliminate these assets for the opposition before ground operations begin, where IDF forces can be more discriminate.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:03 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:13 last edited by
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@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:18 last edited by@Axtremus said in Hamas attacks Israel:
@LuFins-Dad said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Because the target of those bombings are not people, but equipment, weapons, communication gear, etc…
Can the equipment, weapons, communications gear, etc. not be moved by the terrorists/militants/rapists/murderers as they evacuate along with the civilians in light of the pre-bombing warnings?
In 5 minutes? Best of luck.
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:27 last edited by
@Jolly said in Hamas attacks Israel:
A perspective...
A few words with one of the pathologists:
https://m.jpost.com/israel-news/article-769339
I never did help with much this bad. I only helped with forensic stuff early in my career and those skills are very outdated. But if I was 20 years younger, I think I'd hop a plane...
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:46 last edited by
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:49 last edited by
@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Interesting tid bits.
The people providing the Palestinian numbers are the same people that claimed 500 people in a hospital were killed when it blew up from an Israeli rocket.
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:51 last edited by
And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
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@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Interesting tid bits.
The people providing the Palestinian numbers are the same people that claimed 500 people in a hospital were killed when it blew up from an Israeli rocket.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:52 last edited byYou don’t know that.
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And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:54 last edited byDid people take my previous post as trying to make some moral
point?I just thought the details were interesting. Did you know they’re still finding Hamas fighters in Israel?
The number of Palestinian displaced is on the order one would expect given the order to evacuate half the country. But did you realize there were 300k displaced Israelis? That’s a bigger number than I would have guessed.
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And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:58 last edited by@George-K said in Hamas attacks Israel:
And for the sake of moral clarity, look at the second part of Ayn Rand's comments regarding what is "fair" in war.
I posted another interview about "proportionality" in this conflict.
Rand's comments were spot on.
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You don’t know that.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 13:58 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You don’t know that.
Sure we do.
“Palestinian Health Officials” https://www.wsj.com/livecoverage/israel-hamas-war-gaza-strip/card/latest-death-toll-in-israel-and-gaza-eoVPFI8WcXN0mzIR73pY
KHAN YOUNIS, Gaza Strip (AP) — A massive blast rocked a Gaza City hospital packed with wounded and other Palestinians seeking shelter Tuesday, killing hundreds of people, the Hamas-run Health Ministry said. Hamas blamed an Israeli airstrike, while the Israeli military said the hospital was hit by a rocket misfired by Palestinian militants.
The health ministry said at least 500 people had been killed.
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:01 last edited by
You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
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Did people take my previous post as trying to make some moral
point?I just thought the details were interesting. Did you know they’re still finding Hamas fighters in Israel?
The number of Palestinian displaced is on the order one would expect given the order to evacuate half the country. But did you realize there were 300k displaced Israelis? That’s a bigger number than I would have guessed.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:03 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
Did people take my previous post as trying to make some moral point?
No, I don't think that you were trying to make a moral point.
The tweet was. To wit:
"-1500+ Palestinian children killed in Gaza
-750K+ Pals displaced
-300K Istaelis (sic) displaced"I don't dispute the facts (though, like @LuFins-Dad I question the source of the Gazan numbers)), but framing in this fashion is certainly making a moral point, imo.
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You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:04 last edited by George K@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
Fair point. Until the source of the estimates is revealed, however, I'll be skeptical.
ETA: This account also posted this.
"There has to be a way to call for a ceasefire and ensure safety of Palestinians while also addressing the need to debilitate Hamas and restore safety for Israelis, while at the same time demanding a solution that ends the siege/occupation of OPT."
OPT: "Occupied Palestinian Territories?"
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You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:06 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:
You really don’t know where this group got their estimates. It’s hardly a pro-Hamas account.
The Palestinian numbers match exactly what many news outlets are reporting, citing Palestinian Health Ministry
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wrote on 22 Oct 2023, 14:07 last edited by jon-nyc
Are you really that skeptical? The numbers more or less pass the sniff test.
750k displaced could be a bit high, but you have to remember it’s not just northern Gazans who evacuated, there are plenty of others who’s homes have been destroyed.
And ~3k civilian deaths is in the ballpark of what I’d expect after 15 days of more or less continuous airstrikes. I’d be surprised if it were much lower than that.