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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Griner

Griner

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  • George KG Offline
    George KG Offline
    George K
    wrote on last edited by George K
    #26

    A Terrible Concession to Putin’s Russia

    Today you’re going to hear a lot of people defending the Biden administration’s deal to secure the release of Brittney Griner by giving Viktor Bout, the world’s most notorious arms dealer with a metaphorical ocean of blood on his hands, back to Russia. (I called the then-potential deal a “moral abomination” back in August.) Not securing the release of Paul Whelan makes this bad deal even worse.

    A lot of defenders of the deal will contend that critics are indifferent to the suffering of Griner, which is a dodge and a smear. The question is not, “is it in the interest of the U.S. government to secure the release of Brittney Griner?” That’s a silly question; the U.S. never wants to see its citizens unfairly detained under brutal conditions on trumped-up charges. The question is, what is an appropriate concession to secure the release of those citizens, and does the payment of the ransom make future problems like this more likely?

    It is hard to overstate the crimes of Bout; if any human being deserved to rot in prison for the rest of his days, it’s him. Longtime State Department official Witney Schneidman, who tracked Bout delivering arms to both sides of the Angola civil war, called Bout “the personification of evil.” From the end of the Cold War until his arrest in 2008, if there was an arms embargo, Bout flouted it — Liberia, Afghanistan, Sierra Leone, Congo, Libya. Whenever there was a dictator or warlord who needed weapons to mow down his enemies or suppress a suffering population, Bout was there to make a profit off of bloodshed. He earned his nickname, “the Merchant of Death.”)

    After all, if the U.S. government is willing to release Viktor Bout — at one point, the second-most-wanted man after Osama bin Laden! — under enough pressure, then the U.S. government will release anyone under enough pressure: terrorists like Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and Dzhokhar A. Tsarnaev, spies like Robert Hanssen.

    It is likely that one of the reasons the Biden administration went ahead with this deal was their confidence that enough allies would choose to characterize it as a major diplomatic victory, not an epic concession to a hostile state that is likely to try to use the same strongarm tactics again in the future.

    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Offline
      MikM Offline
      Mik
      wrote on last edited by
      #27

      Exactly what I mean by what did it cost us. Bout is just the beginning.

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      1 Reply Last reply
      • George KG Offline
        George KG Offline
        George K
        wrote on last edited by
        #28

        Screenshot 2022-12-08 at 12.04.56 PM.png

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        MikM 1 Reply Last reply
        • George KG George K

          Screenshot 2022-12-08 at 12.04.56 PM.png

          MikM Offline
          MikM Offline
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #29

          @George-K 😁

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          1 Reply Last reply
          • George KG Offline
            George KG Offline
            George K
            wrote on last edited by
            #30

            https://www.foreign.senate.gov/press/dem/release/chairman-menendez-statement-on-the-release-of-brittney-griner

            Written (or signed-off on) by Menendez (D-NJ)

            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              Well to be fair I have no idea whether the Russians were really against releasing Paul Whelan or if they only had one and chose Griner.

              The comments from Whelan’s family suggest the former, they said Biden did the right thing trading for Griner rather than hold out for a deal that can’t be done.

              AxtremusA Offline
              AxtremusA Offline
              Axtremus
              wrote on last edited by
              #31

              @jon-nyc said in Griner:

              The comments from Whelan’s family suggest the former, they said Biden did the right thing trading for Griner rather than hold out for a deal that can’t be done.

              Just came across this: https://people.com/sports/paul-whelans-family-devastated-hes-in-russia-but-happy-for-brittney-griner/

              LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
              • AxtremusA Axtremus

                @jon-nyc said in Griner:

                The comments from Whelan’s family suggest the former, they said Biden did the right thing trading for Griner rather than hold out for a deal that can’t be done.

                Just came across this: https://people.com/sports/paul-whelans-family-devastated-hes-in-russia-but-happy-for-brittney-griner/

                LuFins DadL Offline
                LuFins DadL Offline
                LuFins Dad
                wrote on last edited by
                #32

                @Axtremus said in Griner:

                @jon-nyc said in Griner:

                The comments from Whelan’s family suggest the former, they said Biden did the right thing trading for Griner rather than hold out for a deal that can’t be done.

                Just came across this: https://people.com/sports/paul-whelans-family-devastated-hes-in-russia-but-happy-for-brittney-griner/

                Great… What about Fogel?

                Whalen, there is something to the story. Too many weird actions and a shaky history on his part. Fogel, though? Why aren’t people upset about him?

                The Brad

                George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                • LuFins DadL Offline
                  LuFins DadL Offline
                  LuFins Dad
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #33

                  Nice to know the government places equivalent value on a stoner, lesbian, professional athlete of color and an arms dealer that has been called the definition of evil…

                  The Brad

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                    @Axtremus said in Griner:

                    @jon-nyc said in Griner:

                    The comments from Whelan’s family suggest the former, they said Biden did the right thing trading for Griner rather than hold out for a deal that can’t be done.

                    Just came across this: https://people.com/sports/paul-whelans-family-devastated-hes-in-russia-but-happy-for-brittney-griner/

                    Great… What about Fogel?

                    Whalen, there is something to the story. Too many weird actions and a shaky history on his part. Fogel, though? Why aren’t people upset about him?

                    George KG Offline
                    George KG Offline
                    George K
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #34

                    @LuFins-Dad said in Griner:

                    Whalen, there is something to the story. Too many weird actions and a shaky history on his part.

                    I looked up the Wikipedia story on him.

                    $80K in cash in Moscow? OK, then.

                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • LuFins DadL Offline
                      LuFins DadL Offline
                      LuFins Dad
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #35

                      Is it appropriate to refer to those dishonorably discharged as vets?

                      The Brad

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • George KG Offline
                        George KG Offline
                        George K
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #36

                        Pretty damning description and story.

                        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Whelan_(security_director)

                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • RenaudaR Offline
                          RenaudaR Offline
                          Renauda
                          wrote on last edited by Renauda
                          #37

                          Truth be known the US probably wanted or was negotiating to barter Bout for Snowden, but Putin conveniently granted Snowden Russian citizenship in order to preempt any chance of that deal to succeed. Putin thus turned the tables so it would be an extradition case. In the absence of a bilateral extradition treaty, the Russians would never extradite one of their own to the US.

                          It then became a choice of take Griner or nothing.

                          Elbows up!

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nyc
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #38

                            Seen on Twitter:

                            “This is the first WNBA trade I’ve ever paid attention to”

                            "You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
                            -Cormac McCarthy

                            George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                            • MikM Offline
                              MikM Offline
                              Mik
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #39

                              This was kind of interesting.

                              https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/brittney-griner-s-life-inside-a-russian-prison-revealed-in-newly-released-photos/ar-AA154qUJ?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=fce619697f4f4436955695066206aa57

                              “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • George KG Offline
                                George KG Offline
                                George K
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #40

                                How long before she gets a book deal and a Netflix miniseries?

                                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • JollyJ Offline
                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  Jolly
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #41

                                  Less than 90 days on the book deal.

                                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • George KG Offline
                                    George KG Offline
                                    George K
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #42

                                    "The best deal since Bowe Bergdahl."

                                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • George KG Offline
                                      George KG Offline
                                      George K
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #43

                                      Screenshot 2022-12-09 at 3.14.53 PM.png

                                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • MikM Offline
                                        MikM Offline
                                        Mik
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #44

                                        It will be interesting to see if her outlook has changed.

                                        “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • CopperC Offline
                                          CopperC Offline
                                          Copper
                                          wrote on last edited by Copper
                                          #45

                                          Russian state television mocks U.S. for Brittney Griner prisoner exchange

                                          Russian state television, which is notorious for propaganda, discussed the exchange, mocking the United States for swapping Griner instead of Whelan.

                                          A program moderator referred to Whelan as a "spy," saying that Whelan is a hero to Americans. However, the moderator specified three things against Whelan regarding the U.S. winning his release.

                                          "His first problem is that he is white," the moderator said, according to a translation obtained by Fox News Digital. "His second problem is he is a man. His third problem: He is a heterosexual.

                                          "This is not something that can be forgiven today. It’s just a catastrophe. Yes, here Griner beats him in every aspect."

                                          The moderator goes on to falsely claim "American voters" were given a choice between Griner and Whelan in exchange for the "Merchant of Death," when in fact it was the Biden administration that made the decision.

                                          The moderator added that it was a victory for Russia that the U.S. chose a celebrity over a former Marine, as it shows what the United States values.

                                          https://www.foxnews.com/sports/russia-state-television-mocks-u-s-for-brittney-griner-prisoner-exchange

                                          Doctor PhibesD 1 Reply Last reply
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