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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. If Covid deaths spike...

If Covid deaths spike...

Scheduled Pinned Locked Moved General Discussion
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  • Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor PhibesD Offline
    Doctor Phibes
    wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
    #23

    It is possible for both sides to be wrong. They generally are, IMNSHO.

    And most progressive discussions are a bunch of old white guys saying how tough the blacks have it.

    I was only joking

    1 Reply Last reply
    • HoraceH Horace

      @Doctor-Phibes said in If Covid deaths spike...:

      Most of the white people here say it's not about race, but if there is unfair and disproportionate treatment of blacks, would we really know?

      There is disproportionate police action against low-SES black people born in low-SES black neighborhoods. A high status person of color who's lived in a good neighborhood their whole life has as much likelihood of having been personally visited by policing brutality as I do.

      jon-nycJ Online
      jon-nycJ Online
      jon-nyc
      wrote on last edited by
      #24

      @Horace said in If Covid deaths spike...:

      There is disproportionate police action against low-SES black people born in low-SES black neighborhoods. A high status person of color who's lived in a good neighborhood their whole life has as much likelihood of having been personally visited by policing brutality as I do.

      Seems like that has to be false, just based on the differential crime statistics. Even if cops grab the wrong suspect with identical frequency independently of race, the random black guy's odds of being wrongly suspected will exceed the white guy's since they are disproportionately looking for the black male suspect.

      Only non-witches get due process.

      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
      1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Online
        HoraceH Online
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #25

        Yes, that is a thing that can be identified that would unequivocally push statistics a certain direction. The amount of that effect would depend largely on neighborhood. A high SES person living in a low SES area would get more of that, presumably. But that would probably not be the most important reason for someone who can afford to do so, to remove themselves from those neighborhoods.

        Education is extremely important.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nycJ Online
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
          #26

          I can imagine it being worse in high SES areas where crime is usually perpetrated by minorities who come from outside. In the extreme case, imagine being the one black resident of the lily white area that gets hit a few times a month by black criminals from a few towns over.

          (Anecdote warning) My neighbor is a corporate lawyer who was born in Nigeria. He was grabbed by cops and thrown up against a wall while taking money out of a Citibank (outdoor) ATM in Chappaqua, the very white suburb where the Clintons live. Nothing happened, the cops soon realized he was not their guy and apologized. Such a scene happening to you or me at the same ATM would be pretty close to inconceivable.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          1 Reply Last reply
          • 89th8 Offline
            89th8 Offline
            89th
            wrote on last edited by
            #27

            Unless you looked like the suspect they were after. That's one of the problems... it's a "description of subject" issue, probably not a "just because of their skin color" problem, the way this protest implies.

            Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
            • HoraceH Online
              HoraceH Online
              Horace
              wrote on last edited by
              #28

              I would prefer a society where cops are afraid to approach black people to a society that riots at every anecdote of police racism. So if those are our two choices, by all means, put your systems and plans in place to make cops afraid to approach black people.

              Education is extremely important.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • HoraceH Horace

                @Mik said in If Covid deaths spike...:

                The mistake is in making it about race instead of police brutality. When you try to pretend this only happens to black people then you get into a big old can of worms no one wants to talk honestly about.

                I don't think making it about police brutality would pass anybody's sniff test as a hugely important social problem. It has to have the cover of "if you're not black you couldn't possibly understand". That idea is powerful because it makes it racist to use your sniff test.

                JollyJ Offline
                JollyJ Offline
                Jolly
                wrote on last edited by
                #29

                @Horace said in If Covid deaths spike...:

                @Mik said in If Covid deaths spike...:

                The mistake is in making it about race instead of police brutality. When you try to pretend this only happens to black people then you get into a big old can of worms no one wants to talk honestly about.

                I don't think making it about police brutality would pass anybody's sniff test as a hugely important social problem. It has to have the cover of "if you're not black you couldn't possibly understand". That idea is powerful because it makes it racist to use your sniff test.

                Hence, the Brees Business. It is anathema if he doesn't understand, but those criticising him could care less about his views on the American flag. Empathy Street is a one-way.

                “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                1 Reply Last reply
                • 89th8 89th

                  Unless you looked like the suspect they were after. That's one of the problems... it's a "description of subject" issue, probably not a "just because of their skin color" problem, the way this protest implies.

                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                  Aqua LetiferA Offline
                  Aqua Letifer
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #30

                  @89th said in If Covid deaths spike...:

                  Unless you looked like the suspect they were after. That's one of the problems... it's a "description of subject" issue, probably not a "just because of their skin color" problem, the way this protest implies.

                  No, but that's one of the biggest gaps in understanding that causes the racial divide. In America, you either have to believe in systemic racism or you have to believe that it's completely the protestors' fault because systemic racism doesn't exist. Neither side wants to understand the other.

                  But I believe that of the two of them, more responsibility should be placed on the "there's no problem" crowd. Not because of white privilege or any kind of B.S. like that. And yeah, it's unfair. "Why should I do any legwork here when I didn't cause it and the racism charge is wrong?" Simply because it'd be better if we had more understanding, and it's harder to have understanding when you're living with more problems. And I think the folks living in a shittier part of town do have more problems.

                  I want this "team" horseshit to end, and it's easier to reach out when the situation, whatever people think that is, is affecting you less.

                  That doesn't mean agreeing with BLM, either. I literally mean reaching out to tell the other group where you're coming from, which for me would mean that I diagnose the problem very differently.

                  Please love yourself.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • MikM Offline
                    MikM Offline
                    Mik
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #31

                    How much is systemic and how much experiential?

                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • JollyJ Offline
                      JollyJ Offline
                      Jolly
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #32

                      Maybe I'm confused, but is there any ethic group besides blacks in America that will organize, protest and then riot over a guy with a rap sheet a mile long running afoul of the law? Seems like they celebrate the lowest common denominator of their group and ignore those who are living the best lives they can.

                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • RainmanR Offline
                        RainmanR Offline
                        Rainman
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #33

                        "What difference, at this point, does data make?"

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