Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?
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Interesting stuff.
As for me, first one to go to college. My dad had a (maybe) jr. high education. My mom did not go past third grade. Grandparents - I dont think that any of them had any more than a couple of years of school, if that. Different times, different country.
Interesting graphic on US graduation rates.
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I'm glad the data shows we are much more educated.
Intelligent? Not so much.
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Not buying it.
If somebody plopped you or most of the other people of your generation on a Victorian farm and told you to run it, could you? Without starving?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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Not buying it.
If somebody plopped you or most of the other people of your generation on a Victorian farm and told you to run it, could you? Without starving?
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Not buying it.
If somebody plopped you or most of the other people of your generation on a Victorian farm and told you to run it, could you? Without starving?
It depends, do we have access to YouTube and a feed/farm/hardware store?
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Not buying it.
If somebody plopped you or most of the other people of your generation on a Victorian farm and told you to run it, could you? Without starving?
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Not buying it.
If somebody plopped you or most of the other people of your generation on a Victorian farm and told you to run it, could you? Without starving?
Having a set of skills that one learned from childhood isn’t the same thing as intelligence. The Flynn effect is highly replicable.
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@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Not buying it.
If somebody plopped you or most of the other people of your generation on a Victorian farm and told you to run it, could you? Without starving?
It depends, do we have access to YouTube and a feed/farm/hardware store?
@89th said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Not buying it.
If somebody plopped you or most of the other people of your generation on a Victorian farm and told you to run it, could you? Without starving?
It depends, do we have access to YouTube and a feed/farm/hardware store?
No YouTube and you better make a crop or the village general store will not pack you very far on credit.
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Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
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Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
Please love yourself.
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@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
-
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
Please love yourself.
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Brain shape has changed in the last 300,000 years, but size has not. The current shape stabilized around 35,000 years ago.
So we're working with basically the same size organ since then.
In sheer, raw intelligence, I think we've been working with the same raw material for at least 20,000 years or more. Men are what they are. Education and training may have changed, but at birth we're no smarter than what we have been bred. Whether it is today, at the time of the Norman Conquest, the height of the Roman Empire, or the builders of Angkor Wat.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
It’s not clear how long the Flynn effect has been happening. It is thought to be a modern phenomenon. Surely the rate at which change has happened in the last decades couldn’t have been happening for hundreds of years or people would have been dumber than dogs 500 years ago.
Also there’s a bit of selection bias in that when you read the ancients you’re likely reading the cream of their intellectual crop.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
P> > Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum crop is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.
You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
P> > Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum crop is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.
You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
P> > Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.
You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.
I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."
Please love yourself.
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@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
It’s not clear how long the Flynn effect has been happening. It is thought to be a modern phenomenon. Surely the rate at which change has happened in the last decades couldn’t have been happening for hundreds of years or people would have been dumber than dogs 500 years ago.
Also there’s a bit of selection bias in that when you read the ancients you’re likely reading the cream of their intellectual crop.
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
It’s not clear how long the Flynn effect has been happening. It is thought to be a modern phenomenon. Surely the rate at which change has happened in the last decades couldn’t have been happening for hundreds of years or people would have been dumber than dogs 500 years ago.
Also there’s a bit of selection bias in that when you read the ancients you’re likely reading the cream of their intellectual crop.
Probably. But the question is whether their cream is better than our cream? I'm saying at the most basic level, no.
We have more cream as a product of a vast increase in total numbers.
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@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
P> > Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.
You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.
I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
P> > Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.
You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.
I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."
Did I say that or is that your inference?
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
P> > Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.
You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.
I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."
Did I say that or is that your inference?
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Jolly said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
@jon-nyc said in Who here had grandparents who got a college degree?:
Intelligence helps you acquire skills.
It’s not like if you teach someone to farm they get an IQ boost out of it.
And obviously there are plenty of things any modern person can do that would baffle the Victorians.
For Jolly, intelligence is synonymous with "shares my values."
P> > Wrong.
If the Flynn Effect is real, why can I read a 2500 year-old document and still see men committing the same abusive and heinous acts today? The level of education and knowledge is immeasurably higher today, but men still engage in the same self-destructive behavior. If today's man were vastly more intelligent than his ancestors of more than two millennia ago, should not his destructive and abusive behavior have stopped?
No, it shouldn't. That's limbic system stuff that we've never evolved out of. It's a completely separate brain system from logic and creative problem-solving.
And I don't think I'm wrong in my assessment at all. You seem to think that anyone who isn't a homesteader is significantly more stupid than those who are, because only morons don't know how to grow their own crops and replace load-bearing walls.
No, I think people vastly overvalue their ability to navel-gaze and think Deep Thoughts, confusing that with superior intelligence. I think a good farmer, who can squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum is intelligent. Or a ghetto kid born into poverty, who somehow manages to scrape and work his way out of poverty into the middle or upper middle-class is pretty intelligent. Or a Polynesian fisherman, who can read the waves and how the water breaks, reading the weather and knowing how to set his nets to outcatch his peers is intelligent.
You take those people, give them the education that the modern "intellectual" has and you will see similar IQ scores, providing the test is not biased or rigged.
I didn't say you thought farmers and fishermen weren't intelligent. I'm saying that your posts consistently insinuate that urban professional knowledge workers are unintelligent because they can't "squeeze a bit of dirt in his hand, look at the sky and know he's got a couple of days to plant for a hopeful maximum." You think intelligence means "have the skills I value."
Did I say that or is that your inference?
I'm paraphrasing, so feel free to correct me, but you've said many times that urban professionals were rubes because they don't appreciate where their food comes from. And you did straightup say my degree was worthless, so, you tell me.
