The Ukraine war thread
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And I am sick of the Papal Infallibility aura that Trumpeters are touting, and the exact opposite of pure Trump Fallibility.
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And I am sick of the Papal Infallibility aura that Trumpeters are touting, and the exact opposite of pure Trump Fallibility.
I guess it depends on how individuals are experiencing the Trump phenomenon right now. From where I sit, it is not at all pleasant, desirable or even the least bit warranted. I do however try to restrict my comments and disdain to foreign policy topics that in one way or another impinge on me, my family and my country.
I freely admit however that I find the man, his populist politics and his base repugnant and beneath contempt.
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I guess it depends on how individuals are experiencing the Trump phenomenon right now. From where I sit, it is not at all pleasant, desirable or even the least bit warranted. I do however try to restrict my comments and disdain to foreign policy topics that in one way or another impinge on me, my family and my country.
I freely admit however that I find the man, his populist politics and his base repugnant and beneath contempt.
@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
I guess it depends on how individuals are experiencing the Trump phenomenon right now. From where I sit, it is not at all pleasant, desirable or even the least bit warranted. I do however try to restrict my comments and disdain to foreign policy topics that in one way or another impinge on me, my family and my country.
I freely admit however that I find the man, his populist politics and his base repugnant and beneath contempt.
My problem is that I find roughly 90% of the global population repugnant and beneath contempt.
The Brad
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Vlad, who is at least as pro-Ukraine as anybody else, and at least as anti-Trump, weighs in. So refreshing to hear from someone who can manage to think around his emotions. Amidst the requisite lamentations about Trump and Vance, he calls Zelensky flat footed, caught off guard, petulant, and not up to the task of what should have been a navigable political situation.
Vlad Vexler’s breakdown on this war and the personalities involved, never disappoints. His one swing and miss though seems to be the reaction of Ukrainians - they are rallying around Zelenskyi rather than questioning his words and actions of yesterday. Nevertheless, for me this was a half hour well spent and good medicine for anyone willing to listen. Regardless of one’s personal sympathies and prejudices in this conflict, what Vexler presents here is thoughtful, incisive and based on careful observation of what is unfolding.
Thanks for the link.Horace, while you and I view the world around ourselves very differently and are decidedly miles apart ideologically, I very much appreciate that you do not bring distracting links made of half truths and coffee shop gossip and innuendo into these discussions in a attempt to support an unsubstantiated argument or understanding of the issues at hand.
@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Vlad, who is at least as pro-Ukraine as anybody else, and at least as anti-Trump, weighs in. So refreshing to hear from someone who can manage to think around his emotions. Amidst the requisite lamentations about Trump and Vance, he calls Zelensky flat footed, caught off guard, petulant, and not up to the task of what should have been a navigable political situation.
Vlad Vexler’s breakdown on this war and the personalities involved, never disappoints. His one swing and miss though seems to be the reaction of Ukrainians - they are rallying around Zelenskyi rather than questioning his words and actions of yesterday. Nevertheless, for me this was a half hour well spent and good medicine for anyone willing to listen. Regardless of one’s personal sympathies and prejudices in this conflict, what Vexler presents here is thoughtful, incisive and based on careful observation of what is unfolding.
Thanks for the link.Horace, while you and I view the world around ourselves very differently and are decidedly miles apart ideologically, I very much appreciate that you do not bring distracting links to half truths and coffee shop gossip and innuendo into these discussions in a attempt to support an unsubstantiated argument or understanding of the issues at hand.
Thanks Renauda, I'm glad you appreciated Vlad's essay. I almost always get something out of his videos, so he's one of the few people I still consistently listen to.
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My problem is that I find roughly 90% of the global population repugnant and beneath contempt.
Like me, you too are showing your age.
Being that I am bit older than you, I no longer see it as a problem.
555
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So we have two ideological driven narratives.
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Trump is right, Trump is always right. Ergo, Vance is right by default. So by definition. Zelenskyy must be a total dickhead and an idiot. He’s not ready for the big time and needs to leave the world stage. Maybe we should invade Ukraine.
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Trump is wrong. He is by his very nature wrong and must be evil. Therefore Vance is evil by default. And Zelenskyy must be a brave hero that has done everything correct in the defense of his country and Trump went beyond just embarrassing us, but is a danger to this country and we must rise up and overthrow him to save Democracy!
And there seems to be very little in between. As I’ve said many times in the past, I love it when everyone gets what they want, which seems to be what happened yesterday.
But, just maybe, yesterday was something in between? Maybe, just maybe, Trump and JD were being a little bit of dicks, while still being correct in some ways? And maybe, just maybe, Zelenskyy came in with a chip on his shoulder, and was feeling bullied, and responded in kind? Maybe, just maybe no one was blameless yesterday and everyone overreacted? It couldn’t possibly be that, could it?
@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:
So we have two ideological driven narratives.
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Trump is right, Trump is always right. Ergo, Vance is right by default. So by definition. Zelenskyy must be a total dickhead and an idiot. He’s not ready for the big time and needs to leave the world stage. Maybe we should invade Ukraine.
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Trump is wrong. He is by his very nature wrong and must be evil. Therefore Vance is evil by default. And Zelenskyy must be a brave hero that has done everything correct in the defense of his country and Trump went beyond just embarrassing us, but is a danger to this country and we must rise up and overthrow him to save Democracy!
And there seems to be very little in between. As I’ve said many times in the past, I love it when everyone gets what they want, which seems to be what happened yesterday.
But, just maybe, yesterday was something in between? Maybe, just maybe, Trump and JD were being a little bit of dicks, while still being correct in some ways? And maybe, just maybe, Zelenskyy came in with a chip on his shoulder, and was feeling bullied, and responded in kind? Maybe, just maybe no one was blameless yesterday and everyone overreacted? It couldn’t possibly be that, could it?
I mean, it's always the case that blunt characterizations of the rhetoric of both sides will seem like both sides are silly. But for anybody who wants to present a thoughtful or nuanced view, this is the sort of thing they're up against, with the mainstream Trump haters. Their feelings are at fever pitch. This short doesn't even show when this guy was literally screaming, later in the podcast.
Link to video -
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@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
I guess it depends on how individuals are experiencing the Trump phenomenon right now. From where I sit, it is not at all pleasant, desirable or even the least bit warranted. I do however try to restrict my comments and disdain to foreign policy topics that in one way or another impinge on me, my family and my country.
I freely admit however that I find the man, his populist politics and his base repugnant and beneath contempt.
My problem is that I find roughly 90% of the global population repugnant and beneath contempt.
@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:
My problem is that I find roughly 90% of the global population repugnant and beneath contempt.
See, this is where it comes out that I’m much more of a humanist than you. I personally believe 90% of humanity is very much deserving of contempt.
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Yea but I bet they don’t tell MBS why is he wearing a bathrobe and not a suit.
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So we have two ideological driven narratives.
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Trump is right, Trump is always right. Ergo, Vance is right by default. So by definition. Zelenskyy must be a total dickhead and an idiot. He’s not ready for the big time and needs to leave the world stage. Maybe we should invade Ukraine.
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Trump is wrong. He is by his very nature wrong and must be evil. Therefore Vance is evil by default. And Zelenskyy must be a brave hero that has done everything correct in the defense of his country and Trump went beyond just embarrassing us, but is a danger to this country and we must rise up and overthrow him to save Democracy!
And there seems to be very little in between. As I’ve said many times in the past, I love it when everyone gets what they want, which seems to be what happened yesterday.
But, just maybe, yesterday was something in between? Maybe, just maybe, Trump and JD were being a little bit of dicks, while still being correct in some ways? And maybe, just maybe, Zelenskyy came in with a chip on his shoulder, and was feeling bullied, and responded in kind? Maybe, just maybe no one was blameless yesterday and everyone overreacted? It couldn’t possibly be that, could it?
@LuFins-Dad said in The Ukraine war thread:
So we have two ideological driven narratives.
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Trump is right, Trump is always right. Ergo, Vance is right by default. So by definition. Zelenskyy must be a total dickhead and an idiot. He’s not ready for the big time and needs to leave the world stage. Maybe we should invade Ukraine.
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Trump is wrong. He is by his very nature wrong and must be evil. Therefore Vance is evil by default. And Zelenskyy must be a brave hero that has done everything correct in the defense of his country and Trump went beyond just embarrassing us, but is a danger to this country and we must rise up and overthrow him to save Democracy!
And there seems to be very little in between. As I’ve said many times in the past, I love it when everyone gets what they want, which seems to be what happened yesterday.
But, just maybe, yesterday was something in between? Maybe, just maybe, Trump and JD were being a little bit of dicks, while still being correct in some ways? And maybe, just maybe, Zelenskyy came in with a chip on his shoulder, and was feeling bullied, and responded in kind? Maybe, just maybe no one was blameless yesterday and everyone overreacted? It couldn’t possibly be that, could it?
I think that’s a pretty fair take.
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SecState's take:
Link to video@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
SecState's take:
Link to videoInteresting interview. The lady is asking what everyone is thinking, including Zelenskyy. “Marco Rubio, even you’ve said Putin is a butcher and absolutely can’t be trusted in negotiations” and his response keeps coming back to “yeah but Trump is a deal maker”, what does that meeaannnnnn?? That’s the whole point.
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There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.
Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?
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There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.
Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.
Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?
I’m curious too. Unfortunately we’ve seen this a thousand times. If it fails, it’s someone else’s fault. Before Trump if any US president ever gave Putin a deal (land etc) after he invaded and caused 1.5 million deaths, it would’ve been conservative top shelf blasphemy.
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@jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:
Magats don’t like him anymore either. Like Zelensky, he started the war.
Because one guy Tucker Calrson talked to once, said that, while being intentionally provocative.
Because one guy Tucker Calrson talked to once, said that, while being intentionally provocative.
Okay, so I forgot earlier….your one fault is sometimes relying on and defending that yellow journalist and Walter Winchell wannabe, “ FuCa” for your information. You really ought to be more circumspect with regard to that muckraking wag. Now buck up or you’ll lose your respectable Libertarian status
Elbows up!
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There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.
Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
There is some Deus Ex Machina that everyone expects from Trump - I actually really want to see this through now. What is the special deal that Trump can do to make Putin change his nature and start playing by the rules.
People are hoping, but "expecting" is probably a strong word.
Playing this forward. Let’s say we get a deal and Putin now goes into Baltics or Poland. Is it the same stance again? Let him take some land and then go make a deal?
Who knows? There's no pat playbook, as much as everybody would like to hand-wave from their armchair the existence of such a playbook that we're so obviously violating. Maybe we can argue about this specific situation rather than worrying about the precedent, while for some reason not worrying about the precedent of letting Russia slowly consume Ukraine.
