The Ukraine war thread
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A reasonably refreshing conversation between Sam Harris and Niall Ferguson. I was expecting Niall to join Sam in some histrionics, what with his recent twitter spat with the vice president, but he was completely rational and reasonable throughout, pulling Sam back often. I particularly appreciated how Niall educated Sam about the academic/armchair worldview of America being the shiny city on the hill and needing to uphold all those principles. That is a foundation of the histrionic virtue perspectives in the public conversation, but spoiler alert, it's bullshit. At least according to that particular historian and public intellectual, who has no love for the Trump administration.
Hmm, actually I think this was recorded before today's shenanigans.
Link to video -
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.
Education is extremely important.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.
See? Progress. The deal could involve Russia paying for 50% from frozen European assets for the rebuilding and US/EU paying the other 50%, likely with an ROI via mining rights in eastern Ukraine. (Although to me that means the war just meant million+ dead and Ukraine losing some natural resources to the Americans, but I digress).
Not sure Putin would go for it. He, like Trump, seems to hold (and love) 3rd grade grudges, such revenge for the Bolotnaya protests in 2011 or even back to the 1991 vote for independence, it boils Putin's soviet skin, I'm sure. Heck, can you imagine if Putin got so mad that he jailed and killed a political opponent?
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. Heck, can you imagine if Putin got so mad that he jailed and killed a political opponent?
Off hand, I can’t think of any….
Well, maybe at least not in the last little while….
…. Okay, maybe not in the last week.
‘a-blowe yow and be-kele yow wel, and comyth up all with your ease’ ~ attributed to Henry V
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Winston Churchill would have been disgusted by the way Trump & Vance acted and spoke.
As am I.Winnie of course did promise to pay the US (and Canada) for 'help' with our little war; and we honoured his word by paying back the world's richest nation in full.
Only took us the next 60 years, long after he was dead bless him. -
My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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There's a lot of stupid within this thread.
A few facts:
- The peace was supposed to have been a three step process
- First step was the mineral deal
- Second step was a cease-fire or truce. There had already been talks with France and Great Britain about providing peacekeeping trooops.
- Third step was a negotiation for peace with Russia, Ukraine and the U.S.
The Whitehouse had been working on this for weeks. It had already been agreed upon.
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Yup totally. And Zelenskyy asked Vance his thoughts on Putin’s repeated violations of previous diplomacy and cease fires to which Vance threw a tantrum about not saying thank you. Vance should’ve said something simple about how this time it’ll be different because we have a leader that will enforce security agreements. Even Trump during the meeting said he’s the toughest person in the world but that he doesn’t want for it to come to that.
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@Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:
My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.
You are probably right, but I am hoping you’re wrong. There needed to be a public worldwide reminder that a “deal” that includes the annexation of more land into Russia’s control is unacceptable…they are a murderous aggressor and history is rich with lessons about how such appeasements do not work out in the long run.
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
Yup totally. And Zelenskyy asked Vance his thoughts on Putin’s repeated violations of previous diplomacy and cease fires to which Vance threw a tantrum about not saying thank you. Vance should’ve said something simple about how this time it’ll be different because we have a leader that will enforce security agreements. Even Trump during the meeting said he’s the toughest person in the world but that he doesn’t want for it to come to that.
What part of "already agreed upon " don't you understand? Zelensky was supposed to come to the Whitehouse, do a photo-op with a few questions, handle things a bit diplomatically and then he could bring up any concerns in a private luncheon.
Instead, he shows up to the Whitehouse looking like he's going to a Romanian Rave and runs his mouth where he didn't need to go. J.D. jumped on him (maybe because J.D. is a Marine and already a little pissed at the guy) and Trump weighed in like grandpa telling one of the neighbor's kids how the calf ate the cabbage. Then, Trump basically told him to get his butt outta there. No deal, no meal. Buy your own damn lunch.
Maybe you've worked remote for so long, you've forgotten how business works or you simply hate Trump so much you're biased. When you are the weak side of the deal, you get the best deal you can. You don't do anything to screw up your side of the table. Zelensky screwed the pooch.
And for all you folks with your bullshit analysis, let's boil this down to simple facts: Either a deal is cut with Trump's help or the Europeans have to step in and rescue Ukraine. The first is possible and the second ain't happening. Those are your choices, if you wish Ukraine to survive as an independent nation.
So get your big girl panties on, quit sniping from the peanut gallery and decide what the fuck you want. Binary choice.
Pick one.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion.
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So get your big girl panties on, quit sniping from the peanut gallery and decide what the fuck you want. Binary choice.
You are perfectly free to wear big women's knickers, however I would maintain all the real men here prefer to remain in men’s boxer shorts.
In the meantime can we offer you a saddle? It must be getting uncomfortable for you perched up there on that high horse.
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I ought to have posted the following last week when it was released. Regardless, and in light of yesterday’s train wreck, this interview with the former head of Britain’s MI6, Sir Alex Younger, continues to remain relevant:
Link to video"Putin needs this to succeed more than Trump does. And I think that give Trump quite a lot more power than perhaps he realizes."
Key takeaway is that Putin is not dealing from a position of strength but as yesterday’s encounter with Zelenskyi demonstrated, Trump and his team do not seem to realize this.
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@Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:
Maybe you've worked remote for so long, you've forgotten how business works or you simply hate Trump so much you're biased. When you are the weak side of the deal, you get the best deal you can. You don't do anything to screw up your side of the table. Zelensky screwed the pooch.
And for all you folks with your bullshit analysis, let's boil this down to simple facts: Either a deal is cut with Trump's help or the Europeans have to step in and rescue Ukraine. The first is possible and the second ain't happening. Those are your choices, if you wish Ukraine to survive as an independent nation.
Yes cut a deal, but Trump is hinting at taking the lazy way out and giving Putin a reward (land etc) after invading a country and causing 1.5 million deaths.
It’s not about “cutting a deal” it’s about negotiating without abandoning our principles. But again Trump just wants a deal, no matter the damage.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
Vlad, who is at least as pro-Ukraine as anybody else, and at least as anti-Trump, weighs in. So refreshing to hear from someone who can manage to think around his emotions. Amidst the requisite lamentations about Trump and Vance, he calls Zelensky flat footed, caught off guard, petulant, and not up to the task of what should have been a navigable political situation.
Vlad Vexler’s breakdown on this war and the personalities involved, never disappoints. His one swing and miss though seems to be the reaction of Ukrainians - they are rallying around Zelenskyi rather than questioning his words and actions of yesterday. Nevertheless, for me this was a half hour well spent and good medicine for anyone willing to listen. Regardless of one’s personal sympathies and prejudices in this conflict, what Vexler presents here is thoughtful, incisive and based on careful observation of what is unfolding.
Thanks for the link.Horace, while you and I view the world around ourselves very differently and are decidedly miles apart ideologically, I very much appreciate that you do not bring distracting links to half truths and coffee shop gossip and innuendo into these discussions in a attempt to support an unsubstantiated argument or understanding of the issues at hand.
