The Ukraine war thread
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It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
Elbows up!
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Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
From what I can tell there is a near universal agreement that Trump and Vance came out of that looking really, really, really bad. The only folks that seem to have liked how that went are the Trump "cult" (I say cult because... if Biden had done anything Trump has done over the last 30 days, it would've been met with a deafening MAGA protest, but if Trump, aka King Midas, does it...genius genius genius!)
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@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.
It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.
Yes sorry if it was duplicate. I listened to the meeting while picking up dinner and juggling kids so I haven’t read all of the latest in this thread.
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.
It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.
Yes sorry if it was duplicate. I listened to the meeting while picking up dinner and juggling kids so I haven’t read all of the latest in this thread.
@Renauda finally got a chance to read your two posts earlier for the initial summary and yes, spot on.
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It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
Um, I take no responsibility for plays on words of whomever said that. The fact remains that David Brooks takes sanctimony to levels that can only be reached by those whose whole world is founded on it.
Oh look, he wrote a book about how to be a high character person. (Don't look into his personal history, just read the book, it's easier that way.)
Education is extremely important.
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A reasonably refreshing conversation between Sam Harris and Niall Ferguson. I was expecting Niall to join Sam in some histrionics, what with his recent twitter spat with the vice president, but he was completely rational and reasonable throughout, pulling Sam back often. I particularly appreciated how Niall educated Sam about the academic/armchair worldview of America being the shiny city on the hill and needing to uphold all those principles. That is a foundation of the histrionic virtue perspectives in the public conversation, but spoiler alert, it's bullshit. At least according to that particular historian and public intellectual, who has no love for the Trump administration.
Hmm, actually I think this was recorded before today's shenanigans.
Link to video -
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
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@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
Um, I take no responsibility for plays on words of whomever said that. The fact remains that David Brooks takes sanctimony to levels that can only be reached by those whose whole world is founded on it.
Oh look, he wrote a book about how to be a high character person. (Don't look into his personal history, just read the book, it's easier that way.)
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.
Education is extremely important.
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@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.
See? Progress. The deal could involve Russia paying for 50% from frozen European assets for the rebuilding and US/EU paying the other 50%, likely with an ROI via mining rights in eastern Ukraine. (Although to me that means the war just meant million+ dead and Ukraine losing some natural resources to the Americans, but I digress).
Not sure Putin would go for it. He, like Trump, seems to hold (and love) 3rd grade grudges, such revenge for the Bolotnaya protests in 2011 or even back to the 1991 vote for independence, it boils Putin's soviet skin, I'm sure. Heck, can you imagine if Putin got so mad that he jailed and killed a political opponent?
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.
See? Progress. The deal could involve Russia paying for 50% from frozen European assets for the rebuilding and US/EU paying the other 50%, likely with an ROI via mining rights in eastern Ukraine. (Although to me that means the war just meant million+ dead and Ukraine losing some natural resources to the Americans, but I digress).
Not sure Putin would go for it. He, like Trump, seems to hold (and love) 3rd grade grudges, such revenge for the Bolotnaya protests in 2011 or even back to the 1991 vote for independence, it boils Putin's soviet skin, I'm sure. Heck, can you imagine if Putin got so mad that he jailed and killed a political opponent?
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Winston Churchill would have been disgusted by the way Trump & Vance acted and spoke.
As am I.Winnie of course did promise to pay the US (and Canada) for 'help' with our little war; and we honoured his word by paying back the world's richest nation in full.
Only took us the next 60 years, long after he was dead bless him. -
My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.
“I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill
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There's a lot of stupid within this thread.
A few facts:
- The peace was supposed to have been a three step process
- First step was the mineral deal
- Second step was a cease-fire or truce. There had already been talks with France and Great Britain about providing peacekeeping trooops.
- Third step was a negotiation for peace with Russia, Ukraine and the U.S.
The Whitehouse had been working on this for weeks. It had already been agreed upon.
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Yup totally. And Zelenskyy asked Vance his thoughts on Putin’s repeated violations of previous diplomacy and cease fires to which Vance threw a tantrum about not saying thank you. Vance should’ve said something simple about how this time it’ll be different because we have a leader that will enforce security agreements. Even Trump during the meeting said he’s the toughest person in the world but that he doesn’t want for it to come to that.
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My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.
@Mik said in The Ukraine war thread:
My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.
You are probably right, but I am hoping you’re wrong. There needed to be a public worldwide reminder that a “deal” that includes the annexation of more land into Russia’s control is unacceptable…they are a murderous aggressor and history is rich with lessons about how such appeasements do not work out in the long run.
