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The New Coffee Room

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  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • 89th8 Offline
    89th8 Offline
    89th
    wrote on last edited by
    #2560

    An analysis worth the watch, not that it'll change anyone’s mind.

    Link to video

    HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
    • RenaudaR Offline
      RenaudaR Offline
      Renauda
      wrote on last edited by Renauda
      #2561

      I thought Gary Kasparov made a good observation in the wake of today’s train wreck in international relations:

      ”If Zelensky had wanted to surrender, he would have gone to Moscow, not Washington”

      @Horace

      What we can see very clearly, is that the public discussion is obsessed with the virtue of the situation, rather than the practical impacts on America. This may simply be because the masses are only capable of galvanizing around virtue, rather than complicated strategic considerations.

      Unfortunately or fortunately, and depending, I guess, on how one personally defines or understands virtue, it all boils down to choosing a moral course of action an immoral course of action or an amoral course of action I know which of those three the Kremlin chose ten years ago and continues to hold. I’m just not at all sure of the virtue of the remaining two.

      Elbows up!

      1 Reply Last reply
      • 89th8 89th

        An analysis worth the watch, not that it'll change anyone’s mind.

        Link to video

        HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #2562

        @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

        An analysis worth the watch, not that it'll change anyone’s mind.

        Link to video

        Completely unserious (childish even) analysis from two world-class TDS sufferers, which doesn't even acknowledge that Zelensky simply failed as a politician and diplomat in the exchange.

        I attempted to raise the level of discourse here a little with the Vlad discussion, but I know it's hopeless.

        Education is extremely important.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • JollyJ Offline
          JollyJ Offline
          Jolly
          wrote on last edited by Jolly
          #2563

          It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.

          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

          1 Reply Last reply
          • 89th8 Offline
            89th8 Offline
            89th
            wrote on last edited by
            #2564

            Capehart is a lefty but David Brooks has always seemed to give a good moderate analysis with most things. As expected, the MAGA cult has shifted away from his moderate conservative views.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • HoraceH Offline
              HoraceH Offline
              Horace
              wrote on last edited by
              #2565

              David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class. The perfect psychological pot to brew up a world class case of TDS.

              Education is extremely important.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • RenaudaR Offline
                RenaudaR Offline
                Renauda
                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                #2566

                It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.

                And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.

                Keep on crowing, Foghorn.

                @Horace

                David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.

                That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.

                Same level of class or a thorough lack of?

                Just asking.

                Elbows up!

                HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                  Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?

                  And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?

                  'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.

                  "How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.

                  89th8 Offline
                  89th8 Offline
                  89th
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #2567

                  @Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:

                  Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?

                  And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?

                  'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.

                  "How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.

                  From what I can tell there is a near universal agreement that Trump and Vance came out of that looking really, really, really bad. The only folks that seem to have liked how that went are the Trump "cult" (I say cult because... if Biden had done anything Trump has done over the last 30 days, it would've been met with a deafening MAGA protest, but if Trump, aka King Midas, does it...genius genius genius!)

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • 89th8 89th

                    @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                    @89th

                    That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.

                    It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.

                    Yes sorry if it was duplicate. I listened to the meeting while picking up dinner and juggling kids so I haven’t read all of the latest in this thread.

                    89th8 Offline
                    89th8 Offline
                    89th
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #2568

                    @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                    @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                    @89th

                    That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.

                    It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.

                    Yes sorry if it was duplicate. I listened to the meeting while picking up dinner and juggling kids so I haven’t read all of the latest in this thread.

                    @Renauda finally got a chance to read your two posts earlier for the initial summary and yes, spot on.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • RenaudaR Renauda

                      It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.

                      And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.

                      Keep on crowing, Foghorn.

                      @Horace

                      David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.

                      That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.

                      Same level of class or a thorough lack of?

                      Just asking.

                      HoraceH Offline
                      HoraceH Offline
                      Horace
                      wrote on last edited by Horace
                      #2569

                      @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                      It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.

                      And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.

                      Keep on crowing, Foghorn.

                      @Horace

                      David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.

                      That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.

                      Same level of class or a thorough lack of?

                      Just asking.

                      Um, I take no responsibility for plays on words of whomever said that. The fact remains that David Brooks takes sanctimony to levels that can only be reached by those whose whole world is founded on it.

                      Oh look, he wrote a book about how to be a high character person. (Don't look into his personal history, just read the book, it's easier that way.)

                      ca584264-e0e2-4b61-b9de-8d33fc266b5e-image.png

                      Education is extremely important.

                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                      • HoraceH Offline
                        HoraceH Offline
                        Horace
                        wrote on last edited by Horace
                        #2570

                        A reasonably refreshing conversation between Sam Harris and Niall Ferguson. I was expecting Niall to join Sam in some histrionics, what with his recent twitter spat with the vice president, but he was completely rational and reasonable throughout, pulling Sam back often. I particularly appreciated how Niall educated Sam about the academic/armchair worldview of America being the shiny city on the hill and needing to uphold all those principles. That is a foundation of the histrionic virtue perspectives in the public conversation, but spoiler alert, it's bullshit. At least according to that particular historian and public intellectual, who has no love for the Trump administration.

                        Hmm, actually I think this was recorded before today's shenanigans.

                        Link to video

                        Education is extremely important.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • HoraceH Horace

                          @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.

                          Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.

                          Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.

                          I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.

                          89th8 Offline
                          89th8 Offline
                          89th
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #2571

                          @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.

                          Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.

                          Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.

                          I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.

                          Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.

                          HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                          • HoraceH Horace

                            @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                            It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.

                            And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.

                            Keep on crowing, Foghorn.

                            @Horace

                            David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.

                            That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.

                            Same level of class or a thorough lack of?

                            Just asking.

                            Um, I take no responsibility for plays on words of whomever said that. The fact remains that David Brooks takes sanctimony to levels that can only be reached by those whose whole world is founded on it.

                            Oh look, he wrote a book about how to be a high character person. (Don't look into his personal history, just read the book, it's easier that way.)

                            ca584264-e0e2-4b61-b9de-8d33fc266b5e-image.png

                            RenaudaR Offline
                            RenaudaR Offline
                            Renauda
                            wrote on last edited by Renauda
                            #2572

                            @Horace

                            Um, I take no responsibility for plays on words of whomever said that.

                            Go on with you. I bet you do know.

                            Hint: he’s very bigly in the news.

                            Elbows up!

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • 89th8 89th

                              @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.

                              Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.

                              Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.

                              I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.

                              Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.

                              HoraceH Offline
                              HoraceH Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #2573

                              @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.

                              Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.

                              Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.

                              I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.

                              Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.

                              Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.

                              Education is extremely important.

                              89th8 1 Reply Last reply
                              • RenaudaR Offline
                                RenaudaR Offline
                                Renauda
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #2574

                                And get right on it!

                                Elbows up!

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • HoraceH Horace

                                  @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.

                                  Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.

                                  Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.

                                  I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.

                                  Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.

                                  Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.

                                  89th8 Offline
                                  89th8 Offline
                                  89th
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #2575

                                  @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                  You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.

                                  Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.

                                  Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.

                                  I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.

                                  Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.

                                  Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.

                                  See? Progress. The deal could involve Russia paying for 50% from frozen European assets for the rebuilding and US/EU paying the other 50%, likely with an ROI via mining rights in eastern Ukraine. (Although to me that means the war just meant million+ dead and Ukraine losing some natural resources to the Americans, but I digress).

                                  Not sure Putin would go for it. He, like Trump, seems to hold (and love) 3rd grade grudges, such revenge for the Bolotnaya protests in 2011 or even back to the 1991 vote for independence, it boils Putin's soviet skin, I'm sure. Heck, can you imagine if Putin got so mad that he jailed and killed a political opponent?

                                  RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • bachophileB Offline
                                    bachophileB Offline
                                    bachophile
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #2576

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • 89th8 89th

                                      @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      @89th said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.

                                      Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.

                                      Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.

                                      I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.

                                      Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.

                                      Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.

                                      See? Progress. The deal could involve Russia paying for 50% from frozen European assets for the rebuilding and US/EU paying the other 50%, likely with an ROI via mining rights in eastern Ukraine. (Although to me that means the war just meant million+ dead and Ukraine losing some natural resources to the Americans, but I digress).

                                      Not sure Putin would go for it. He, like Trump, seems to hold (and love) 3rd grade grudges, such revenge for the Bolotnaya protests in 2011 or even back to the 1991 vote for independence, it boils Putin's soviet skin, I'm sure. Heck, can you imagine if Putin got so mad that he jailed and killed a political opponent?

                                      RenaudaR Offline
                                      RenaudaR Offline
                                      Renauda
                                      wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                      #2577

                                      @89th

                                      . Heck, can you imagine if Putin got so mad that he jailed and killed a political opponent?

                                      Off hand, I can’t think of any….

                                      Well, maybe at least not in the last little while….

                                      …. Okay, maybe not in the last week.

                                      Elbows up!

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      👨‍🎨 😆
                                      • A Offline
                                        A Offline
                                        AndyD
                                        wrote on last edited by AndyD
                                        #2578

                                        Winston Churchill would have been disgusted by the way Trump & Vance acted and spoke.
                                        As am I.

                                        Winnie of course did promise to pay the US (and Canada) for 'help' with our little war; and we honoured his word by paying back the world's richest nation in full.
                                        Only took us the next 60 years, long after he was dead bless him.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • MikM Offline
                                          MikM Offline
                                          Mik
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #2579

                                          My problem here is all this puts Ukraine in as weak a position as I could imagine short of surrender. Whatever occurs now will not be as favorable as it could have been. Trump has marginalized a nation.

                                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                          89th8 1 Reply Last reply
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