The Ukraine war thread
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
Sometimes, I forget that you didn't live through "duck and cover" and the Cuban Missile Crisis.
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Yes, this sounds like a serious situation, but are we not going to confront it now because there wasn’t sufficient gratitude coming from Zelensky?
Either we believe something is in our interest or it isn’t. I didn’t think Trump was going to do anything out of the goodness of his heart.
@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Yes, this sounds like a serious situation, but are we not going to confront it now because there wasn’t sufficient gratitude coming from Zelensky?
Either we believe something is in our interest or it isn’t. I didn’t think Trump was going to do anything out of the goodness of his heart.
I am not sure a cold, calculating standard would lead us to care too much about what happens in Ukraine. What we can see very clearly, is that the public discussion is obsessed with the virtue of the situation, rather than the practical impacts on America. This may simply be because the masses are only capable of galvanizing around virtue, rather than complicated strategic considerations. It may also have to do with the case for practical impacts being flimsy.
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It’s almost like she had a crystal ball.
Link to video -
I thought Gary Kasparov made a good observation in the wake of today’s train wreck in international relations:
”If Zelensky had wanted to surrender, he would have gone to Moscow, not Washington”
What we can see very clearly, is that the public discussion is obsessed with the virtue of the situation, rather than the practical impacts on America. This may simply be because the masses are only capable of galvanizing around virtue, rather than complicated strategic considerations.
Unfortunately or fortunately, and depending, I guess, on how one personally defines or understands virtue, it all boils down to choosing a moral course of action an immoral course of action or an amoral course of action I know which of those three the Kremlin chose ten years ago and continues to hold. I’m just not at all sure of the virtue of the remaining two.
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An analysis worth the watch, not that it'll change anyone’s mind.
Link to video@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
An analysis worth the watch, not that it'll change anyone’s mind.
Link to videoCompletely unserious (childish even) analysis from two world-class TDS sufferers, which doesn't even acknowledge that Zelensky simply failed as a politician and diplomat in the exchange.
I attempted to raise the level of discourse here a little with the Vlad discussion, but I know it's hopeless.
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It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
Elbows up!
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Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
@Doctor-Phibes said in The Ukraine war thread:
Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
From what I can tell there is a near universal agreement that Trump and Vance came out of that looking really, really, really bad. The only folks that seem to have liked how that went are the Trump "cult" (I say cult because... if Biden had done anything Trump has done over the last 30 days, it would've been met with a deafening MAGA protest, but if Trump, aka King Midas, does it...genius genius genius!)
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@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.
It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.
Yes sorry if it was duplicate. I listened to the meeting while picking up dinner and juggling kids so I haven’t read all of the latest in this thread.
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
That’s pretty much how I saw it also as I posted earlier today.
It, in fact, almost seemed choreographed for Vance to go on the attack should Zelenskyi criticize or question Putin’s integrity in adhering to any diplomatic principles or treaty obligations.
Yes sorry if it was duplicate. I listened to the meeting while picking up dinner and juggling kids so I haven’t read all of the latest in this thread.
@Renauda finally got a chance to read your two posts earlier for the initial summary and yes, spot on.
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It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
Um, I take no responsibility for plays on words of whomever said that. The fact remains that David Brooks takes sanctimony to levels that can only be reached by those whose whole world is founded on it.
Oh look, he wrote a book about how to be a high character person. (Don't look into his personal history, just read the book, it's easier that way.)
Education is extremely important.
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A reasonably refreshing conversation between Sam Harris and Niall Ferguson. I was expecting Niall to join Sam in some histrionics, what with his recent twitter spat with the vice president, but he was completely rational and reasonable throughout, pulling Sam back often. I particularly appreciated how Niall educated Sam about the academic/armchair worldview of America being the shiny city on the hill and needing to uphold all those principles. That is a foundation of the histrionic virtue perspectives in the public conversation, but spoiler alert, it's bullshit. At least according to that particular historian and public intellectual, who has no love for the Trump administration.
Hmm, actually I think this was recorded before today's shenanigans.
Link to video -
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
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@Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:
It seems as if a certain group of people cannot bring themselves to acknowledge that it takes somebody to be twenty-one kinds of stupid to challenge the President in the Whitehouse in front of world media.
And to think you were the same person who belly ached about my outrageous inhospitality when I posted here that guests to my house are asked to remove their street shoes at the door when they come to visit.
Keep on crowing, Foghorn.
David Brooks has been discussed here at length. His sanctimony is world class.
That must be something. I can remember some loudmouth and world class media whore a year or so ago calling Governor DeSantis, “Ron DeSanctimonious”.
Same level of class or a thorough lack of?
Just asking.
Um, I take no responsibility for plays on words of whomever said that. The fact remains that David Brooks takes sanctimony to levels that can only be reached by those whose whole world is founded on it.
Oh look, he wrote a book about how to be a high character person. (Don't look into his personal history, just read the book, it's easier that way.)
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@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
@Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:
@89th said in The Ukraine war thread:
You’re right about the practical effect of it. However as Jon mentioned, this guy has spent fighting to stop an invasion, one that initially we thought Russia would win in 3 days, and the Ukrainians have held them off for 3 years, and I think Zelenskyy at this point is a DGAF mode…and any deal that even hints at annexing more Ukrainian land to Russia is a non starter.
Armchair westerners watching with respect and awe as another country commits suicide over principles that are anything but armchair to them, is sort of gross. Vlad from the above video imagines that Ukrainian citizens should be furious with Zelensky over his behavior today.
Trump has the ability to push Russia out of Ukraine tomorrow. But his feelings are still hurt over the Hunter Russian memo thing and Zelenskyy speaking with Kamala. As always, it’s Trumps ego and petulance over principles and morality.
I know it's fun to say this sort of stuff, safe in the knowledge that it won't happen, and you won't have to countenance an escalation with a nuclear power.
Trump could offer a deal where Ukraine isn't allowed in NATO and Russia withdraws from Ukraine, basically bringing it back to the post-Crimea annexation.
Sounds like a great idea, thanks for bringing it up. Hopefully Trump will read this.
Education is extremely important.
