The Ukraine war thread
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Ok. I’ve never ever seen an Oval Office meeting like this.
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Zelensky has an interesting attitude. He thinks the anti-Trump crowd in America is useful leverage for him. I'm not sure he's right. The usual crowd will love this as Zelensky smiting Trump from the right side of history, but it is far from obvious to me that his attitude is helpful.
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I guess all Trump wants is "thanks" but like, to hear it a lot. Over and over.
Reminds me of the ending:
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All Zelenskyi did was point out the fact that previous diplomacy attempts with Putin - ie The Minsk Accords - all failed. In every instance Putin broke the agreement and resumed his aggression. Vance pounced on him and accused Zelenskyi of litigating the war in the cherished Oval Office. The yelling match then escalated. It came off as Vance acting as agent provocateur. If I didn’t know better, I would say it was choreographed.
It is nothing short of a disaster.
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I think Zelensky surprised them by not even attempting to be diplomatic or deferential. That's his choice, but he's probably not well advised to think it'll be effective with Trump. He must be hoping it'll be effective with the western media who are already on his side. I'm sure they'll love it, I'm just not sure how meaningful that is.
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@Mik I think Zelensky surprised them. Surprised me, too. He's awfully cavalier about his personal relationship with this administration and American culture at large. I am surprised he is comfortable being that cavalier. But he's the guy in charge, and I hope he knows what he's doing. I'm not completely convinced that he does.
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Everyone loves it when Trump acts without decorum, but we need to handle the stable genius with kid gloves.
We’ve internalized his childishness to the point where we get mad at other adults for not catering to it.
The man is a moron. The emperor has no clothes.
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I will await patiently for anybody to give any thought to the choices Zelensky made in that conversation, and their practical effect.
We can stipulate for the purposes of the conversation that Trump is the bad guy, and maybe think around that for a moment, to touch on practical effects.
Just kidding, the usual suspects will not be capable of that, with the exception of Renauda.
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Does anybody think that Trump and Vance came out of that looking good?
And which rocket surgeon had the idea to televise that?
'Professional' wasn't the word that sprang to mind.
"How many times have you said thank you?" Fucking hell.
I was only joking
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@xenon said in The Ukraine war thread:
It kind of doesn’t matter. People have a sense of what’s right. If they feel like they’re getting bullied, they’ll often yell “fuck you” back to them even if it means they get punched in the face.
Life isn’t always an accounting exercise.
It doesn't matter, huh. Interesting perspective. The practical effects of where this leads to, matter. They matter regardless of any puffery about knowing what's right.
