More food for thought
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I do find the American right's constant belittling of higher education rather tiresome.
This has nothing to do with the arts, but I've worked with a number of technicians who think they should be running the engineering department. They claim that the only thing that's held them back is a lack of a degree. In reality it was their inability to get the degree in the first place that stopped them from progressing.
Sure, I'd rather they were doing the testing, the plumbing and the woodwork. But that's not engineering and research.
I was only joking
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@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.
What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.
Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.
Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.
Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?
@jolly said in More food for thought:
@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.
What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.
Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.
Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.
Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?
Let's start with where you started. Let's see some writing from these polymath tradesmen you know.
Please love yourself.
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I do find the American right's constant belittling of higher education rather tiresome.
This has nothing to do with the arts, but I've worked with a number of technicians who think they should be running the engineering department. They claim that the only thing that's held them back is a lack of a degree. In reality it was their inability to get the degree in the first place that stopped them from progressing.
Sure, I'd rather they were doing the testing, the plumbing and the woodwork. But that's not engineering and research.
@doctor-phibes said in More food for thought:
I do find the American right's constant belittling of higher education rather tiresome.
There's a certain kind of cat who goes in for this sort of bullshit. It's people who:
- have a big ego, inexperienced in humility; and
- have a lopsided skillset.
What do I do when I'm so embarrassingly inadequate in a field that even I know it, and I don't have the emotional intelligence to be okay with that?
Belittle the other side! That's exactly right!
Self-important tradies who believe that they can't compete academically will be the very first to tell you what they think of the education system.
Oh and by the way? Other side does this, too. There are absolutely scads of city-dwellers who have advanced degrees and can't top up their own wiper fluid, so what do they think of the trades? Yes of course, they're for unwashed knuckle-draggers who can't do anything important with their lives.
It's all horseshit. And yeah, unfortunately Americans are pretty good at slinging it around.
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@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.
What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.
Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.
Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.
Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?
Convicted felon and noted rabble-rouser. Lived with his mother into his thirties. Spent most of his time hanging out with fishermen.
Your lot would have a freaking field-day with him.
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@jolly said in More food for thought:
@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.
What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.
Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.
Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.
Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?
Let's start with where you started. Let's see some writing from these polymath tradesmen you know.
@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.
What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.
Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.
Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.
Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?
Let's start with where you started. Let's see some writing from these polymath tradesmen you know.
In some aspects, I'm one.
Now, you're telling me I can't write?
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@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.
What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.
Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.
Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.
Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?
Let's start with where you started. Let's see some writing from these polymath tradesmen you know.
In some aspects, I'm one.
Now, you're telling me I can't write?
@jolly said in More food for thought:
In some aspects, I'm one.
Now, you're telling me I can't write?
Everyone can write. Just like everyone can work with wood.
But building Ikea furniture isn't Japanese joinery, and writing's exactly the same. There are many, many skill levels.
And by the way, how you get better at writing–and why so few people do–is to spend an absurd amount of time in a closed, quiet room, doing your absolute damndest to murder your ego. I mean that literally.
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Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.
And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.
Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong
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Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.
And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.
Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.
And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.That's an interesting choice of argument from a guy who routinely points to readership and book sales as evidence of writing quality when discussing folks like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Really. Are you now admitting that popularity doesn't always define quality, or are we just doing that in this particular case because it's convenient?
Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong
I already did, way up at the start of this discussion. There's nothing wrong with construction company debt forgiveness per se. Where he's wrong is implying that the only difference between a business loan and a student loan is monetary. Student loans can have ridiculous repercussions that would never happen with a business loan.
I didn't say that entitles students and only students to debt forgiveness. I'm saying the loans are apples and oranges, and sound economic planning has never come out of an internet meme.
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@jolly said in More food for thought:
Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.
And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.That's an interesting choice of argument from a guy who routinely points to readership and book sales as evidence of writing quality when discussing folks like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Really. Are you now admitting that popularity doesn't always define quality, or are we just doing that in this particular case because it's convenient?
Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong
I already did, way up at the start of this discussion. There's nothing wrong with construction company debt forgiveness per se. Where he's wrong is implying that the only difference between a business loan and a student loan is monetary. Student loans can have ridiculous repercussions that would never happen with a business loan.
I didn't say that entitles students and only students to debt forgiveness. I'm saying the loans are apples and oranges, and sound economic planning has never come out of an internet meme.
@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.
And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.That's an interesting choice of argument from a guy who routinely points to readership and book sales as evidence of writing quality when discussing folks like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Really. Are you now admitting that popularity doesn't always define quality, or are we just doing that in this particular case because it's convenient?
Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong
I already did, way up at the start of this discussion. There's nothing wrong with construction company debt forgiveness per se. Where he's wrong is implying that the only difference between a business loan and a student loan is monetary. Student loans can have ridiculous repercussions that would never happen with a business loan.
I didn't say that entitles students and only students to debt forgiveness. I'm saying the loans are apples and oranges, and sound economic planning has never come out of an internet meme.
Since when have people considered good writers by the intelligentsia, ever equated to popular sales?
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Back to the English majors...What value do they bring to society? I'd say that value = salary in a capitalistic society, but accurate numbers are hard to come by.
Or other college degreed young people that cannot find jobs in their major and use their college degrees as an entry point to the actual work world.
These people are worth more to society than the hard-working tradesman? We need to forgive the drone loans and ignore the guy trying to provide necessary services, who finds it hard to start his business because of the high cost of equipment and the loans needed to purchase it?
Are those working people in West Virginia worthy of the swipe you took at them, because they sometimes eye people who don't work as hard as they do with a somewhat jaundiced eye?
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Back to the English majors...What value do they bring to society? I'd say that value = salary in a capitalistic society, but accurate numbers are hard to come by.
Or other college degreed young people that cannot find jobs in their major and use their college degrees as an entry point to the actual work world.
These people are worth more to society than the hard-working tradesman? We need to forgive the drone loans and ignore the guy trying to provide necessary services, who finds it hard to start his business because of the high cost of equipment and the loans needed to purchase it?
Are those working people in West Virginia worthy of the swipe you took at them, because they sometimes eye people who don't work as hard as they do with a somewhat jaundiced eye?
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Back to the English majors...
What value do they bring to society? I'd say that value = salary in a capitalistic society, but accurate numbers are hard to come by.
You post here on this forum about sci-fi books you've read, you share articles you've found on the internet, talk movies, share around links to product pages but you still want to ask, "what value do they bring to society." This is getting a little nuts.
These people are worth more to society than the hard-working tradesman?
No, and I never said anything of the sort.
We need to forgive the drone loans and ignore the guy trying to provide necessary services, who finds it hard to start his business because of the high cost of equipment and the loans needed to purchase it?
No, and I never said anything of the sort.
Are those working people in West Virginia worthy of the swipe you took at them, because they sometimes eye people who don't work as hard as they do with a somewhat jaundiced eye?
First of all, you're not going to lecture me about the "working people of West Virginia."
Second, that wasn't a swipe—that's just how it is. Many intellectuals who don't have experience working with their hands look down on tradies. Many tradies who never tried pursuing an advanced degree look down on intellectuals. It seems you're comfortable sticking with this fallacy, so more power to you I guess.
As for "don't work as hard," in this very thread, you said you were familiar with Dunning-Kruger. Bro, this one's straight out of the playbook.
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No, I look at value-added. I think that society functioned about as well as it does today, back when a college degree was held by a lot less folks than today. D-K causes a cognitive problem, where people think they know more than what they do.
Many college graduates hold worthless degrees, being highly educated idiots, yet are convinced their intelligence and worth are superior to people without degrees.
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The answer isn’t to forgive construction loans, it’s to make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. Far less will be given out and universities will respond accordingly with reduced price options.
"You never know what worse luck your bad luck has saved you from."
-Cormac McCarthy -
The answer isn’t to forgive construction loans, it’s to make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. Far less will be given out and universities will respond accordingly with reduced price options.
@jon-nyc said in More food for thought:
The answer isn’t to forgive construction loans, it’s to make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. Far less will be given out and universities will respond accordingly with reduced price options.
That makes some sense. Charges will expand to take in the money pool available. The same principle applies to federal and state grants for municipal projects.
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The answer isn’t to forgive construction loans, it’s to make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy. Far less will be given out and universities will respond accordingly with reduced price options.
@jon-nyc said in More food for thought:
it’s to make student debt dischargeable in bankruptcy
Private student loans can be dischargeable in bankruptcy:
https://studentloanhero.com/featured/student-loan-discharge-programs/
Unlike other types of debt, the courts rarely discharge student loans through bankruptcy. But in extreme cases of “undue hardship,” declaring bankruptcy will wipe out some or all of your student debt. There’s no hard-and-fast rule for what constitutes undue hardship, but there are a few general guidelines:
You’ve made good faith efforts to pay back the loan.
If you had to pay back the loan, you couldn’t sustain a minimal standard of living.
Your financial hardship is going to continue for the foreseeable future.
If you’re considering filing for bankruptcy discharge, you must decide whether your situation falls under Chapter 7 or Chapter 13 bankruptcy. Chapter 7 filers have virtually no income to pay back any of their debts; Chapter 13 filers might be able to repay at least part of their debt if their loans were restructured to make them more manageable.Since student debt is not typically included under bankruptcy filing, you may need to enlist a student loan lawyer. This legal process can be long and expensive, so you must consider whether filing for bankruptcy discharge is worth the battle. Consider all your options, including income-based repayment, before choosing student loan discharge through bankruptcy.
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Yeah, but then a lot of students will declare bankruptcy on loans they used for lifestyle, not necessarily education.
Back in the dim mists of time, when dinosaurs roamed the earth and I matriculated on a college campus, most students lived in dorms. They ate in dining halls. Few had cars. Many had part-time jobs or worked during the summer. A lot of student entertainment revolved around campus events such as ball games, intramural competition, student union activities, an occasional campus concert and scraping together enough nickles for Saturday night pizza and movie date.
Go look at campuses today. Lots of students live in off-campus apartments or houses. They drive better cars than I do. Most sporting events on campus are not as well attended as back in my day, because they are spending money on other entertainment. Where there used to be vibrant student life on the weekend campus, many schools turn into a ghost town.
To be fair, consider the flip side. A college education has become very expensive for what is being delivered. And there are many reasons why, some of which we simply shouldn't do. Things like degree proliferation, especially in useless subjects such as Women's Studies. The proliferation of adjuncts, while professors teach less classes. Charging the same rate for internet based classes, when it costs a fraction of the expense to hold those classes. Dumping more required hours for a degree on students, necessitating one or two more semesters to obtain a degree. The explosion of management on campus and the salary increases that go with it. And Federal mandates that must be met.
A bachelor's degree in a mainline subject, such as business, education, nursing or a basic science, should cost no more than $10-$12k/year, including tuition and fees. Campus housing should be done as cheaply as possible with affordable meal plans ( looking at you, Aramark).
Lastly, maybe the Feds need to be out of the student loan business. Or at the very least we need to overhaul the system...Maybe increase Pell Grants and let more students qualify for subsidized on-campus jobs. Whatever we do, the system needs to be fixed...There's no way a 23 year-old kindergarten teacher should be paying on $50,000 (or more) of student loans.
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Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
@jolly said in More food for thought:
Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.
Suddenly everyone is an expert on the Dunning-Kruger Effect.
