More food for thought

[Aqua Letifer]

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Before I entertain the below, I'm going to address something: I'm not saying the guy doesn't have a point. At least in terms of his side of loan forgiveness. What I would say is that there's a crack in the logical foundation here: the loans are not even broadly the same and can't be compared as if the differences were only monetary.

Now, on to your queries.

So, how is $75k in student loans - often for a degree that has no usefulness in the job market - better than some guy trying to get a business off of the ground?

I'm not moved by the "business > education" fallacy. I've been hearing it from rural conservatives regarding my own degree since I received it. It usually comes from people who don't even know they're touting that argument to further stake their claim along their chosen professional totem pole.

In my experience, which isn't special, every degree can either have a usefulness in the job market, or not, depending on how pragmatic you choose to be about the experience.

Suppose the Hand of God swept through America tonight, killing every plumber and English major. Who would be missed more the next morning?

In the short-term? Plumbers.

In the long-term, I know you're a fan of history, so it's hilarious to me that you of all people (1) just proposed a Bolshevik purge and then (2) claimed that it's no big deal.

And before you start attacking English majors as a bunch of woke motherfuckers, I'd remind you that placing all educational emphasis on the STEM fields, treating English as a throwaway degree, fostering a disdain for the humanities, and keeping rural, conservative kids out of liberal arts degree programs because you think they're worthless is precisely how you would cultivate woke motherfuckery if you wanted to do so as quickly as possible. So, great job, I guess.

[Jolly]

Absolute horseshit. I've known some very talented guys in my life that made their living building, wiring or repairing different things in society. I think it much easier for the guy who can do rafter tables in his head and read wood grain like a bible, to write sonnets or novels, than it is for for the lit major to cut birdmouths on a 5/12 rafter or run a sewer line.

[LuFins Dad]

@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Before I entertain the below, I'm going to address something: I'm not saying the guy doesn't have a point. At least in terms of his side of loan forgiveness. What I would say is that there's a crack in the logical foundation here: the loans are not even broadly the same and can't be compared as if the differences were only monetary.

Wait, are we talking Federal student loans, or private? At any rate, you can have your student loans discharged in bankruptcy, it's just not automatic. Federal student loans are also discharged in cases of death. Private student loanscan be a little more tricky and are basically a case by case basis.

Now, on to your queries.

So, how is $75k in student loans - often for a degree that has no usefulness in the job market - better than some guy trying to get a business off of the ground?

I'm not moved by the "business > education" fallacy. I've been hearing it from rural conservatives regarding my own degree since I received it. It usually comes from people who don't even know they're touting that argument to further stake their claim along their chosen professional totem pole.

In my experience, which isn't special, every degree can either have a usefulness in the job market, or not, depending on how pragmatic you choose to be about the experience.

It's not a matter of usefulness, it's a matter of value. That degree has a value to the student. Whether it's directly tied to a career and income or not. Let's not diminish education while trying to promote practical training and job programs. Both are valuable.

Suppose the Hand of God swept through America tonight, killing every plumber and English major. Who would be missed more the next morning?

In the short-term? Plumbers.

In the long-term, I know you're a fan of history, so it's hilarious to me that you of all people (1) just proposed a Bolshevik purge and then (2) claimed that it's no big deal.

And before you start attacking English majors as a bunch of woke motherfuckers, I'd remind you that placing all educational emphasis on the STEM fields, treating English as a throwaway degree, fostering a disdain for the humanities, and keeping rural, conservative kids out of liberal arts degree programs because you think they're worthless is precisely how you would cultivate woke motherfuckery if you wanted to do so as quickly as possible. So, great job, I guess.

Funny, I can't really name any plumbers from 1900-1950, but I can name quite a few English Majors.

[Aqua Letifer]

@jolly said in More food for thought:

I think it much easier for the guy who can do rafter tables in his head and read wood grain like a bible, to write sonnets or novels, than it is for for the lit major to cut birdmouths on a 5/12 rafter or run a sewer line.

Spoken like a true Dunning-Kruger University graduate. Of course you would say that. Had you different life experiences, you wouldn't.

[Jolly]

Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.

[Jolly]

BTW, the guy who first explained the Dunning-Kruger effect to me was a floor installer, who eventually became known for his custom wood floors in the Dallas and North Texas area.

[Aqua Letifer]

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.

I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.

What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.

Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.

Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.

[Jolly]

@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.

I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.

What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.

Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.

Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.

Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?

[LuFins Dad]

Well, Rowe himself was a communications major that almost went for theater… I bet he has little issue with English Lit majors…

[Jolly]

Probably not. But that's not the gist of his thoughts, is it?

[Doctor Phibes]

I do find the American right's constant belittling of higher education rather tiresome.

This has nothing to do with the arts, but I've worked with a number of technicians who think they should be running the engineering department. They claim that the only thing that's held them back is a lack of a degree. In reality it was their inability to get the degree in the first place that stopped them from progressing.

Sure, I'd rather they were doing the testing, the plumbing and the woodwork. But that's not engineering and research.

[Jolly]

Belittling, or just tired of the snot tracks on the ceiling?

[Aqua Letifer]

@jolly said in More food for thought:

@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.

I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.

What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.

Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.

Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.

Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?

Let's start with where you started. Let's see some writing from these polymath tradesmen you know.

[Aqua Letifer]

@doctor-phibes said in More food for thought:

I do find the American right's constant belittling of higher education rather tiresome.

There's a certain kind of cat who goes in for this sort of bullshit. It's people who:

1. have a big ego, inexperienced in humility; and
2. have a lopsided skillset.

What do I do when I'm so embarrassingly inadequate in a field that even I know it, and I don't have the emotional intelligence to be okay with that?

Belittle the other side! That's exactly right!

Self-important tradies who believe that they can't compete academically will be the very first to tell you what they think of the education system.

Oh and by the way? Other side does this, too. There are absolutely scads of city-dwellers who have advanced degrees and can't top up their own wiper fluid, so what do they think of the trades? Yes of course, they're for unwashed knuckle-draggers who can't do anything important with their lives.

It's all horseshit. And yeah, unfortunately Americans are pretty good at slinging it around.

[Doctor Phibes]

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?

Convicted felon and noted rabble-rouser. Lived with his mother into his thirties. Spent most of his time hanging out with fishermen.

Your lot would have a freaking field-day with him.

[Jolly]

@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:

@jolly said in More food for thought:

@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Actually, I know what the Dunning-Kruger effect is. Now, find me the average English lit major who knows how to rack a house square.

I never claimed an English lit major could just pick up some wood and do that.

What you're claiming is that a carpenter with no writing experience could write a sonnet or novel.

Triple dog dare you to show me some of that shit.

Jolly, I completed my master's with students who had years of writing experience and many still couldn't manage that.

Want to start with Jesus Christ and work our way forward?

Let's start with where you started. Let's see some writing from these polymath tradesmen you know.

In some aspects, I'm one.

Now, you're telling me I can't write?

[Aqua Letifer]

@jolly said in More food for thought:

In some aspects, I'm one.

Now, you're telling me I can't write?

Everyone can write. Just like everyone can work with wood.

But building Ikea furniture isn't Japanese joinery, and writing's exactly the same. There are many, many skill levels.

And by the way, how you get better at writing–and why so few people do–is to spend an absurd amount of time in a closed, quiet room, doing your absolute damndest to murder your ego. I mean that literally.

[Jolly]

Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.

And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.

Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong

[Aqua Letifer]

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.
And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.

That's an interesting choice of argument from a guy who routinely points to readership and book sales as evidence of writing quality when discussing folks like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Really. Are you now admitting that popularity doesn't always define quality, or are we just doing that in this particular case because it's convenient?

Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong

I already did, way up at the start of this discussion. There's nothing wrong with construction company debt forgiveness per se. Where he's wrong is implying that the only difference between a business loan and a student loan is monetary. Student loans can have ridiculous repercussions that would never happen with a business loan.

I didn't say that entitles students and only students to debt forgiveness. I'm saying the loans are apples and oranges, and sound economic planning has never come out of an internet meme.

[Jolly]

@aqua-letifer said in More food for thought:

@jolly said in More food for thought:

Yes, everyone can write. A lot of people that you've never heard of, are pretty good.
And some people considered pretty good by the intelligentsia, write absolute tripe.

That's an interesting choice of argument from a guy who routinely points to readership and book sales as evidence of writing quality when discussing folks like Ann Coulter and Bill O'Really. Are you now admitting that popularity doesn't always define quality, or are we just doing that in this particular case because it's convenient?

Now, tell me again where Rowe is wrong

I already did, way up at the start of this discussion. There's nothing wrong with construction company debt forgiveness per se. Where he's wrong is implying that the only difference between a business loan and a student loan is monetary. Student loans can have ridiculous repercussions that would never happen with a business loan.

I didn't say that entitles students and only students to debt forgiveness. I'm saying the loans are apples and oranges, and sound economic planning has never come out of an internet meme.

Since when have people considered good writers by the intelligentsia, ever equated to popular sales?