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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Not Self-Defense (graphic)

Not Self-Defense (graphic)

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  • M Offline
    M Offline
    Mik
    wrote on 28 Nov 2021, 15:13 last edited by
    #3

    Lots of stupid to go around.

    "The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil

    1 Reply Last reply
    • J Offline
      J Offline
      jon-nyc
      wrote on 28 Nov 2021, 19:30 last edited by
      #4

      The world needs prison bitches too.

      Thank you for your attention to this matter.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • J Offline
        J Offline
        jon-nyc
        wrote on 28 Nov 2021, 19:37 last edited by
        #5

        I think Kyle realizes at the end he’s going to jail for murder.

        Thank you for your attention to this matter.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • J Offline
          J Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on 28 Nov 2021, 19:44 last edited by
          #6

          Poor kid. First he loses the genetic lottery now this.

          Thank you for your attention to this matter.

          R 1 Reply Last reply 28 Nov 2021, 21:28
          • J jon-nyc
            28 Nov 2021, 19:44

            Poor kid. First he loses the genetic lottery now this.

            R Offline
            R Offline
            Rich
            wrote on 28 Nov 2021, 21:28 last edited by
            #7

            @jon-nyc Yeah, but at least now he only has one bad parent.

            (sorry, sorry)

            G 1 Reply Last reply 28 Nov 2021, 21:30
            • R Rich
              28 Nov 2021, 21:28

              @jon-nyc Yeah, but at least now he only has one bad parent.

              (sorry, sorry)

              G Offline
              G Offline
              George K
              wrote on 28 Nov 2021, 21:30 last edited by
              #8

              @rich said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

              @jon-nyc Yeah, but at least now he only has one bad parent.

              (sorry, sorry)

              Outstanding!

              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • I Offline
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                Ivorythumper
                wrote on 28 Nov 2021, 23:45 last edited by Ivorythumper
                #9

                Weird how neither the shooter nor the lady in the car who was with the deceased was particularly shocked by the shooting...

                As of this past week, Carruth hasn't been charged, so maybe it goes down as self defense?

                1 Reply Last reply
                • J Offline
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                  Jolly
                  wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 00:02 last edited by
                  #10

                  Texas is a stand-your-ground state. Even at that, the guy with the rifle achieved separation. Seems to me that the shootee would have needed to start towards him.

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  I 1 Reply Last reply 29 Nov 2021, 00:39
                  • J Jolly
                    29 Nov 2021, 00:02

                    Texas is a stand-your-ground state. Even at that, the guy with the rifle achieved separation. Seems to me that the shootee would have needed to start towards him.

                    I Offline
                    I Offline
                    Ivorythumper
                    wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 00:39 last edited by
                    #11

                    @jolly said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                    Texas is a stand-your-ground state. Even at that, the guy with the rifle achieved separation. Seems to me that the shootee would have needed to start towards him.

                    Did the gun guy shoot first at the feet after dead guy threatened to take the gun away and use it? It sounds like it from the audio, which could be construed as warning shots.

                    It looks like dead guy then grabbed the gun and tried to wrest it, but wound up only throwing the guy away creating distance but also assaulting him -- so the other guy acted in self defense...

                    Horrible events, but it would be a tough prosecution.

                    G 1 Reply Last reply 29 Nov 2021, 00:54
                    • I Ivorythumper
                      29 Nov 2021, 00:39

                      @jolly said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                      Texas is a stand-your-ground state. Even at that, the guy with the rifle achieved separation. Seems to me that the shootee would have needed to start towards him.

                      Did the gun guy shoot first at the feet after dead guy threatened to take the gun away and use it? It sounds like it from the audio, which could be construed as warning shots.

                      It looks like dead guy then grabbed the gun and tried to wrest it, but wound up only throwing the guy away creating distance but also assaulting him -- so the other guy acted in self defense...

                      Horrible events, but it would be a tough prosecution.

                      G Offline
                      G Offline
                      George K
                      wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 00:54 last edited by
                      #12

                      @ivorythumper said in [Not Self-Defense (graphic)]

                      Did the gun guy shoot first at the feet after dead guy threatened to take the gun away and use it? It sounds like it from the audio, which could be construed as warning shots.

                      Yes, he did. But, he retreated. That's critical.

                      It looks like dead guy then grabbed the gun and tried to wrest it, but wound up only throwing the guy away creating distance but also assaulting him -- so the other guy acted in self defense.

                      One can make the case that "gun guy" was 10 feet away from "dead guy" and "dead guy" posed no immediate threat.

                      Horrible events, but it would be a tough prosecution.

                      From the RWEC:

                      "Carruth’s lawyer is claiming that Read grabbing the gun justifies the shooting, that’s going to be a tough sale because 1) Carruth escalated the situation by discharging the gun before Read grabbed it and 2) Read was a good distance away, no longer in danger of getting the gun when he was shot.

                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                      I 1 Reply Last reply 29 Nov 2021, 15:18
                      • 8 Offline
                        8 Offline
                        89th
                        wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 11:55 last edited by
                        #13

                        The sound of a chicken in the background was a nice touch.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • G George K
                          29 Nov 2021, 00:54

                          @ivorythumper said in [Not Self-Defense (graphic)]

                          Did the gun guy shoot first at the feet after dead guy threatened to take the gun away and use it? It sounds like it from the audio, which could be construed as warning shots.

                          Yes, he did. But, he retreated. That's critical.

                          It looks like dead guy then grabbed the gun and tried to wrest it, but wound up only throwing the guy away creating distance but also assaulting him -- so the other guy acted in self defense.

                          One can make the case that "gun guy" was 10 feet away from "dead guy" and "dead guy" posed no immediate threat.

                          Horrible events, but it would be a tough prosecution.

                          From the RWEC:

                          "Carruth’s lawyer is claiming that Read grabbing the gun justifies the shooting, that’s going to be a tough sale because 1) Carruth escalated the situation by discharging the gun before Read grabbed it and 2) Read was a good distance away, no longer in danger of getting the gun when he was shot.

                          I Offline
                          I Offline
                          Ivorythumper
                          wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:18 last edited by
                          #14

                          @george-k said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                          @ivorythumper said in [Not Self-Defense (graphic)]

                          Did the gun guy shoot first at the feet after dead guy threatened to take the gun away and use it? It sounds like it from the audio, which could be construed as warning shots.

                          Yes, he did. But, he retreated. That's critical.

                          It looks like dead guy then grabbed the gun and tried to wrest it, but wound up only throwing the guy away creating distance but also assaulting him -- so the other guy acted in self defense.

                          One can make the case that "gun guy" was 10 feet away from "dead guy" and "dead guy" posed no immediate threat.

                          Horrible events, but it would be a tough prosecution.

                          From the RWEC:

                          "Carruth’s lawyer is claiming that Read grabbing the gun justifies the shooting, that’s going to be a tough sale because 1) Carruth escalated the situation by discharging the gun before Read grabbed it and 2) Read was a good distance away, no longer in danger of getting the gun when he was shot.

                          I don't see Read retreating -- when Carruth came out with a gun, Read got aggressive. In his face, threatening to take the gun away. When C fires the warning shots, R grabbed C and the gun, and pushed him. 10 or 12 feet is not "a good distance away" nor out of danger.

                          The video from R's wife tracks C, not R, so we don't know what C was doing from that viewpoint.

                          R was stupid and threatening and acting violently. C was stupid too, but R was stupider and is now dead. Tough prosecution. I don't see anything beyond a reasonable doubt.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • 8 Offline
                            8 Offline
                            89th
                            wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:28 last edited by
                            #15

                            Don't discount the (empathetic) angle of a dad trying to pick up his son at his legally appointed time and frustrated when his ex isn't cooperating. Anyone watching the video will be impacted by that, even if it's not relevant to the actual killing.

                            That being said, the fact that C went inside to get a firearm is what triggered any escalating actions thereafter, including the warning shot, and then eventually the fatal shots he took after stepping back and aiming at the unarmed man who was not posing any significant threats. If the only threat was him grabbing a gun shoved in his face, that's not really much.

                            This is pretty clear cut murder, IMO.

                            I J 2 Replies Last reply 29 Nov 2021, 15:33
                            • J Offline
                              J Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:32 last edited by
                              #16

                              Ten feet with the aggressor standing and ten feet with the aggressor moving, are two different things. Unless you are very good (and I know people that can do it), it's very hard to draw a firearm and get off a shot if an aggressor is within ten feet, period. If the gun is in the average person's hands, with the safety off, a running ten feet makes the outcome maybe 75/25 (SWAG). If the weapon us in hand and the aggressor is standing, if he starts towards you, he's shot. The only question is whether he's dead.

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • 8 89th
                                29 Nov 2021, 15:28

                                Don't discount the (empathetic) angle of a dad trying to pick up his son at his legally appointed time and frustrated when his ex isn't cooperating. Anyone watching the video will be impacted by that, even if it's not relevant to the actual killing.

                                That being said, the fact that C went inside to get a firearm is what triggered any escalating actions thereafter, including the warning shot, and then eventually the fatal shots he took after stepping back and aiming at the unarmed man who was not posing any significant threats. If the only threat was him grabbing a gun shoved in his face, that's not really much.

                                This is pretty clear cut murder, IMO.

                                I Offline
                                I Offline
                                Ivorythumper
                                wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:33 last edited by
                                #17

                                @89th said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                                Don't discount the (empathetic) angle of a dad trying to pick up his son at his legally appointed time and frustrated when his ex isn't cooperating. Anyone watching the video will be impacted by that, even if it's not relevant to the actual killing.

                                That being said, the fact that C went inside to get a firearm is what triggered any escalating actions thereafter, including the warning shot, and then eventually the fatal shots he took after stepping back and aiming at the unarmed man who was not posing any significant threats. If the only threat was him grabbing a gun shoved in his face, that's not really much.

                                This is pretty clear cut murder, IMO.

                                A much larger and angry man comes ranting and threatening on his property - he shoves C as soon as C steps outside, and C goes inside to get a weapon - the argument is that R is already violent and hostile, and C has a right to defend his GF and self and property.

                                8 1 Reply Last reply 29 Nov 2021, 15:35
                                • I Ivorythumper
                                  29 Nov 2021, 15:33

                                  @89th said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                                  Don't discount the (empathetic) angle of a dad trying to pick up his son at his legally appointed time and frustrated when his ex isn't cooperating. Anyone watching the video will be impacted by that, even if it's not relevant to the actual killing.

                                  That being said, the fact that C went inside to get a firearm is what triggered any escalating actions thereafter, including the warning shot, and then eventually the fatal shots he took after stepping back and aiming at the unarmed man who was not posing any significant threats. If the only threat was him grabbing a gun shoved in his face, that's not really much.

                                  This is pretty clear cut murder, IMO.

                                  A much larger and angry man comes ranting and threatening on his property - he shoves C as soon as C steps outside, and C goes inside to get a weapon - the argument is that R is already violent and hostile, and C has a right to defend his GF and self and property.

                                  8 Offline
                                  8 Offline
                                  89th
                                  wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:35 last edited by
                                  #18

                                  @ivorythumper said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                                  the argument is that R is already violent and hostile, and C has a right to defend his GF and self and property.

                                  Completely agree, but I don't agree that he needed to step over options 1 through 9 before jumping to option 10 of shooting him to death. I know this isn't a legal argument, but it's really hard from that video to think "Oh yeah, he definitely needed to kill that man" since the man gave no indication up until then that he had any violent intent.

                                  I 1 Reply Last reply 29 Nov 2021, 15:46
                                  • 8 89th
                                    29 Nov 2021, 15:28

                                    Don't discount the (empathetic) angle of a dad trying to pick up his son at his legally appointed time and frustrated when his ex isn't cooperating. Anyone watching the video will be impacted by that, even if it's not relevant to the actual killing.

                                    That being said, the fact that C went inside to get a firearm is what triggered any escalating actions thereafter, including the warning shot, and then eventually the fatal shots he took after stepping back and aiming at the unarmed man who was not posing any significant threats. If the only threat was him grabbing a gun shoved in his face, that's not really much.

                                    This is pretty clear cut murder, IMO.

                                    J Offline
                                    J Offline
                                    Jolly
                                    wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:36 last edited by
                                    #19

                                    @89th said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                                    Don't discount the (empathetic) angle of a dad trying to pick up his son at his legally appointed time and frustrated when his ex isn't cooperating. Anyone watching the video will be impacted by that, even if it's not relevant to the actual killing.

                                    That being said, the fact that C went inside to get a firearm is what triggered any escalating actions thereafter, including the warning shot, and then eventually the fatal shots he took after stepping back and aiming at the unarmed man who was not posing any significant threats. If the only threat was him grabbing a gun shoved in his face, that's not really much.

                                    This is pretty clear cut murder, IMO.

                                    Not in Texas.

                                    Now, there may be a conviction on something else, but I don't think it will be murder.

                                    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • 8 Offline
                                      8 Offline
                                      89th
                                      wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:37 last edited by
                                      #20

                                      Mayyyyyyyyybe manslaughter, but I still say murder since he intentionally and knowingly took the man's life.

                                      J 1 Reply Last reply 30 Nov 2021, 18:08
                                      • 8 89th
                                        29 Nov 2021, 15:35

                                        @ivorythumper said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                                        the argument is that R is already violent and hostile, and C has a right to defend his GF and self and property.

                                        Completely agree, but I don't agree that he needed to step over options 1 through 9 before jumping to option 10 of shooting him to death. I know this isn't a legal argument, but it's really hard from that video to think "Oh yeah, he definitely needed to kill that man" since the man gave no indication up until then that he had any violent intent.

                                        I Offline
                                        I Offline
                                        Ivorythumper
                                        wrote on 29 Nov 2021, 15:46 last edited by
                                        #21

                                        @89th said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                                        @ivorythumper said in Not Self-Defense (graphic):

                                        the argument is that R is already violent and hostile, and C has a right to defend his GF and self and property.

                                        Completely agree, but I don't agree that he needed to step over options 1 through 9 before jumping to option 10 of shooting him to death. I know this isn't a legal argument, but it's really hard from that video to think "Oh yeah, he definitely needed to kill that man" since the man gave no indication up until then that he had any violent intent.

                                        He should have gone inside and dialed 911. And then maybe positioned himself with his rifle between R and his GF. But none of these are strictly rational actors.

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                                          G Offline
                                          George K
                                          wrote on 30 Nov 2021, 14:52 last edited by
                                          #22

                                          This is a long, long, video (5 hours!), but bottom line is that this lawyer from Minnesooota thinks that Kyle won't be charged, and if he is, will be acquitted.

                                          Link to video

                                          Go to about 30:00 for what he says is relevant law.

                                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

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