"You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine."
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@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Jolly said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Improviso said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing.
Well... up to the point where China and WHO fucked us in the ass, he was doing a pretty damn good job in my book.
It's curious - he was praising Xi pretty hard until the end of Feb. On transparency - lol. Raise your hands if you believed China was being transparent at any point.
https://www.politico.com/news/2020/04/15/trump-china-coronavirus-188736
Skippy,
At that point, we're still wondering whether we were being lied to, or not.
Secondly, do you really want to piss on the guy who can put a stop on the PPE pipeline?
@Jolly What did you learn in March that you didn't know by the end of Feb? Also - why put in your first N95 order on March 21st - if this was all about managing supply from them?
I'm sure you'll crank up the degrees on the chess for yet another brilliant rationale.
You know what you know, when you know it. To ignore that things change daily, sometimes hourly in a pandemic...Well, go look at Jon's daily thread.
Secondly, how do you do an addendum to a Federal contract? Or in this case do you think it better to do a RFP? Or course, Trump has more latitude in a crisis, but how many laws do you wish him to break, in order to satisfy your whims?
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@Jolly I'm not disagreeing with you that things change on the daily and there's tons of ambiguity.
Again - my main point is that Trump is a bad thinker. It's clear he's just reacting.
It's always a gamble to have a strong POV about something as it's developing and as your understanding is developing. I know - that's a big part of my job.
The thing is - when it turns out you were wrong - you need to explain why you thought what you did and how circumstances changed.
If you keep taking strong points of view and come up short time after time, then gloss over the fact that it happened - well then anyone paying attention can see you're full of crap.
And again - my issue is the guy at the top is full of crap to the point of being useless. Nothing he says has any credibility. He's funny though.
I'm no expert on pandemic response.
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@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Jolly I'm not disagreeing with you that things change on the daily and there's tons of ambiguity.
Again - my main point is that Trump is a bad thinker. It's clear he's just reacting.
It's always a gamble to have a strong POV about something as it's developing and as your understanding is developing. I know - that's a big part of my job.
The thing is - when it turns out you were wrong - you need to explain why you thought what you did and how circumstances changed.
If you keep taking strong points of view and come up short time after time, then gloss over the fact that it happened - well then anyone paying attention can see you're full of crap.
And again - my issue is the guy at the top is full of crap to the point of being useless. Nothing he says has any credibility. He's funny though.
I'm no expert on pandemic response.
Dance, monkey, dance.
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Example - look how much uncertainty he's sown on masks. There's a bunch of research coming out daily now that masks work.
He could throw his weight behind masks and say - let's get back out there. Masks give us some added protection, let's keep social distancing to the extent possible. But let's get out there.
It'd actually help the economy open faster.
But no - he has political hills he wants to die on.
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You cannot take today's data and apply it to yesterday's problems.
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@George-K Why doesn't he wear one in a setting where everyone else does? Why did Pence flout the guidelines and apologize after on one of his site visits?
Seems like they're pretty deadset against them.
Even if you're on the fence, where them where it's the norm.
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@Doctor-Phibes
Really not any different than the characters on sitcoms these days.
"Mentally disadvantaged"(?) Is that really you, being all PC??
I think someone may have hacked D'Phibes account! -
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@George-K Why doesn't he wear one in a setting where everyone else does?
Because he knows that if he wore one you would hate everyone who wore one.
You would tell us that masks are stupid!
And you would insist that the masks help China.
That's why.
He does it because of you.
In order to protect people.
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@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@George-K Why doesn't he wear one in a setting where everyone else does? Why did Pence flout the guidelines and apologize after on one of his site visits?
Seems like they're pretty deadset against them.
Even if you're on the fence, where them where it's the norm.
Moving the goalposts out of the stadium?
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@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Jolly what was the original goalpost?
He has no credibility because he creates confusion. He's telling other people to wear masks one day, but refuses to himself. How does that make sense?
What, specifically, should have been earlier?
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@Jolly said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Jolly what was the original goalpost?
He has no credibility because he creates confusion. He's telling other people to wear masks one day, but refuses to himself. How does that make sense?
What, specifically, should have been earlier?
If you read carefully - the conversation of "what specifically should have been done earlier" was not driven by me.
I chimed in with this note:
I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing. I also often argue that the role of the President in governing the U.S. is much more limited than people act like it is.
It's interesting that the argument now is - "well, the President actually can't do much here." Convenient - but I don't disagree that much. Powers to carry out specific actions are limited, but there is massive opportunity and responsibility to rally the country.
For me the issue has always been he makes the situation worse because he's a poor thinker. I agree that the role of the executive is smaller than people act like it is. And the ventilator example is a great example here. Even if some other executive acted faster than Trump here and got more ventilators early - the changing circumstances / understanding can dwarf any effect of a specific action by the Pres. (i.e., the worst case for ventilator need never materialized)
Now - where the President does have influence is being a voice to rally action and consensus. Creating clarity on important initiatives, and providing clarity on the national path forward (even with competing reasonable alternatives).
At that he fails miserably. He releases guidelines to open, then completely abandons them and calls for "LIBERATE!". He's onboard with masks when the CDC recommends them - then never mentions them again.
Let me ask you Jolly. Do you wish he would wear a mask in a setting where everyone else is wearing a mask? Do you think that would have even a marginal effect on their acceptability and use?
There's an event tomorrow at Ford where he's been asked to wear a mask. I'll be the first to applaud him if he finally does.
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His mixed messaging is simply a result of the attempt to balance 2 things:
to do what is right
to do what gets me reelected
these two things are in constant conflict.
If it was soley up to him, he'd kick all the scientists out and tell everybody to get the hell back to work, mask or no mask. "I've got to get this economy going again or Sleepy Joe is going to gloat on November 3rd"
"that's ok though, I will invalidate the election because of all the mail in voting fraud which of course is only Democrats"
"King again!"
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@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Jolly said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@Jolly what was the original goalpost?
He has no credibility because he creates confusion. He's telling other people to wear masks one day, but refuses to himself. How does that make sense?
What, specifically, should have been earlier?
If you read carefully - the conversation of "what specifically should have been done earlier" was not driven by me.
I chimed in with this note:
I'll chime in here with the preface that my key criticism of Trump is that he's just not intellectually up to the job of governing. I also often argue that the role of the President in governing the U.S. is much more limited than people act like it is.
It's interesting that the argument now is - "well, the President actually can't do much here." Convenient - but I don't disagree that much. Powers to carry out specific actions are limited, but there is massive opportunity and responsibility to rally the country.
For me the issue has always been he makes the situation worse because he's a poor thinker. I agree that the role of the executive is smaller than people act like it is. And the ventilator example is a great example here. Even if some other executive acted faster than Trump here and got more ventilators early - the changing circumstances / understanding can dwarf any effect of a specific action by the Pres. (i.e., the worst case for ventilator need never materialized)
Now - where the President does have influence is being a voice to rally action and consensus. Creating clarity on important initiatives, and providing clarity on the national path forward (even with competing reasonable alternatives).
At that he fails miserably. He releases guidelines to open, then completely abandons them and calls for "LIBERATE!". He's onboard with masks when the CDC recommends them - then never mentions them again.
Let me ask you Jolly. Do you wish he would wear a mask in a setting where everyone else is wearing a mask? Do you think that would have even a marginal effect on their acceptability and use?
There's an event tomorrow at Ford where he's been asked to wear a mask. I'll be the first to applaud him if he finally does.
To be honest, I don't think POTUS wearing a mask or not wearing a mask, moves the needle a whole lot in either direction. There are people who will wear them and some who will not, unless the local death rate is ridiculously high.
As for him being a poor thinker, that simply doesn't happen at his level.
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@Jolly said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
I admitted bias and asked for refutation. Is the timeline factually correct?
I skimmed through it and it seems mostly factual but obviously incomplete as it omitted timeline events that didn’t fit its narrative.
I’m not sure your point? I said before I thought Trump has done a number of good moves as well.
Again...this is not political for me. I look at the actions and statements from the President using a party-agnostic lens, and think it’s clear the incoherent messaging (including downplaying the seriousness of the virus throughout Feb and March) really delayed efforts that would’ve likely flattened the curve earlier and saved countless lives.
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Here's what your missing...Above all, Trump is a businessman. What figures very prominently in Trump's decision tree?
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@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
Now - where the President does have influence is being a voice to rally action and consensus. Creating clarity on important initiatives, and providing clarity on the national path forward (even with competing reasonable alternatives).
At that he fails miserably. He releases guidelines to open, then completely abandons them and calls for "LIBERATE!". He's onboard with masks when the CDC recommends them - then never mentions them again.
Let me ask you Jolly. Do you wish he would wear a mask in a setting where everyone else is wearing a mask?
Good analysis and summary @xenon
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@89th said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
@xenon said in "You're damn right I'm taking hydroxychloroquine.":
Now - where the President does have influence is being a voice to rally action and consensus. Creating clarity on important initiatives, and providing clarity on the national path forward (even with competing reasonable alternatives).
At that he fails miserably. He releases guidelines to open, then completely abandons them and calls for "LIBERATE!". He's onboard with masks when the CDC recommends them - then never mentions them again.
Let me ask you Jolly. Do you wish he would wear a mask in a setting where everyone else is wearing a mask?
Good analysis and summary @xenon
I agree with 89 and Xenon. I remember saying something similar on the old forum board that the President was like a cheerleader.
I disagree with Jolly that what President Trump (or any president) actions have no impact on people that follow him. I think it is just the opposite. If President Trump said that it was important to wear a mask, I would guess that 50% of the people who are against it would suddenly find a reason to support it.
