French Government Says No to Virginity Test
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You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 05:30 last edited by@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
There are two common systems of law in North America, English Common Law and the Napoleonic Code. The NP, as you well know, has its origins in France. Therefore, the way the law works in Louisiana and Quebec is very similar to French law.
As such, there is no common law precedent, but an enacted code that can be original in intent and scope of punishment, as long as it does not run afoul of the French Constitution. I'm no expert on the French Constitution and I highly doubt you are, either.
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.
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@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
There are two common systems of law in North America, English Common Law and the Napoleonic Code. The NP, as you well know, has its origins in France. Therefore, the way the law works in Louisiana and Quebec is very similar to French law.
As such, there is no common law precedent, but an enacted code that can be original in intent and scope of punishment, as long as it does not run afoul of the French Constitution. I'm no expert on the French Constitution and I highly doubt you are, either.
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.
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@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 12:48 last edited by@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
Then address the force. That is illegal. Heck, bring back the guillotine, and invite the public for a picnic and execution, same as would be done in Saudi Arabia.
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
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wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 12:56 last edited by
Assault, murder, extortion, kidnapping, threats, stalking - all, and more, illegal.
Why outlaw a specifically religious activity, especially if all parties consent?
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@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
You can put your own knickers away, I could care less what Napoleonic code you live under. This discussion was about France.
There are two common systems of law in North America, English Common Law and the Napoleonic Code. The NP, as you well know, has its origins in France. Therefore, the way the law works in Louisiana and Quebec is very similar to French law.
As such, there is no common law precedent, but an enacted code that can be original in intent and scope of punishment, as long as it does not run afoul of the French Constitution. I'm no expert on the French Constitution and I highly doubt you are, either.
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:21 last edited by Renauda 4 Apr 2021, 16:16@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
However, I know enough to know that the French Constitution does decree a separation of church and state, and gives its citizens Freedom of Religion.
As has previously been stated (by me), the Koran does not explicitly call for a virgin bride. But many Muslims from the ME and North Africa do follow the custom.
Now, whether you, or anybody else thinks that is a barbaric custom, I don't give a shit. I'm not in favor of it, but if a group or religion wants to engage in the practice, have at it. I see no reason where it has a detrimental effect upon society and if they want to practice it in their religion, have at it. I don't see where it is any if the French government's business or where the state has an overriding concern.
Again, as I have previously stated, as long as people are not forced to do so, I suspect the nation of France has far more pressing problems.Yes, the practice allegedly violates France's new law of Separatism, therefore making virginity tests the business of the French state.
It is controversial. The left sees as discriminatory and the right sees it as weak and does not go far enough to root out the threat of domestic Islamicism:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-france-security-vote-idUSKBN2AG2A6
You further point out that the practice is not necessarily universal among Muslims and that Koran does not require a virgin bride. That suggests that the practice is in fact something other than religious or at least does not have a religious tradition or commandment to support it.
So if it is not a religious practice or is only culturally or tribally associated with Islam, then how can one, such as yourself, defend it as falling under a freedom of religious practice or requirement?
Apparently some Muslim and Roma women (the latter, I might add are probably not Muslims) are being forced to undergo these tests in France. So it is not a question of consent or freedom of choice either.
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@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
Then address the force. That is illegal. Heck, bring back the guillotine, and invite the public for a picnic and execution, same as would be done in Saudi Arabia.
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:21 last edited by brenda 4 Apr 2021, 14:23@jolly Agreed. That should also include testing for virginity, which is also often forced. The problem is that the young women are forced to do that, too, otherwise they are deemed to be admittedly no longer virgin. Guess what happens to them then?
We're right back to where we started with this discussion. I see these as linked.
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families? Does their religious freedom include forced testing? If women cannot decline testing without risking their lives, is that part of religious freedom?
Think what you want to think. I know there is no changing your mind nor mine.
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@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly These young women are often forced to do this. Even if they try to escape, their fathers and brothers will hunt for them and kill them.
Then address the force. That is illegal. Heck, bring back the guillotine, and invite the public for a picnic and execution, same as would be done in Saudi Arabia.
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:22 last edited by@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
That sounds suspiciously like nuance.
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Assault, murder, extortion, kidnapping, threats, stalking - all, and more, illegal.
Why outlaw a specifically religious activity, especially if all parties consent?
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:24 last edited by@copper said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Assault, murder, extortion, kidnapping, threats, stalking - all, and more, illegal.
Why outlaw a specifically religious activity, especially if all parties consent?
Because they don't consent. They are forced to be tested, too.
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@jolly Agreed. That should also include testing for virginity, which is also often forced. The problem is that the young women are forced to do that, too, otherwise they are deemed to be admittedly no longer virgin. Guess what happens to them then?
We're right back to where we started with this discussion. I see these as linked.
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families? Does their religious freedom include forced testing? If women cannot decline testing without risking their lives, is that part of religious freedom?
Think what you want to think. I know there is no changing your mind nor mine.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:31 last edited by@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families?
In his book Shibumi, Trevanian writes this: "Virginity is important to Arabs, who dread comparison, and with good reason."
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@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families?
In his book Shibumi, Trevanian writes this: "Virginity is important to Arabs, who dread comparison, and with good reason."
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:32 last edited by@catseye3 said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families?
In his book Shibumi, Trevanian writes this: "Virginity is important to Arabs, who dread comparison, and with good reason."
Want to explain that one?
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@catseye3 said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families?
In his book Shibumi, Trevanian writes this: "Virginity is important to Arabs, who dread comparison, and with good reason."
Want to explain that one?
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:34 last edited by@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Want to explain that one?
You'd have to check with Trevanian. Oh wait, you can't; he's dead.
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wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:36 last edited by
Arabs have small penises? That sounds racist.
I am against racism, full stop. I believe racism is wrong.
Also murder, and misogyny. Wrong, full stop.
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@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families?
In his book Shibumi, Trevanian writes this: "Virginity is important to Arabs, who dread comparison, and with good reason."
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 14:38 last edited by@catseye3 said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Is this testing religion or just historical practices to keep women subjugated in their families?
In his book Shibumi, Trevanian writes this: "Virginity is important to Arabs, who dread comparison, and with good reason."
LOLOL
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@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
That sounds suspiciously like nuance.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 16:26 last edited by@horace said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
That sounds suspiciously like nuance.
Sounds more like fear of becoming an irrelevant anachronism.
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@horace said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
That sounds suspiciously like nuance.
Sounds more like fear of becoming an irrelevant anachronism.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 16:28 last edited by@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@horace said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
That sounds suspiciously like nuance.
Sounds more like fear of becoming an irrelevant anachronism.
Careful, your value system is speaking louder than your nuance is, again.
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@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@horace said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
But when you start down the slippery slope of criminalizing religious behavior, at what point do you lose freedom of religion?
That sounds suspiciously like nuance.
Sounds more like fear of becoming an irrelevant anachronism.
Careful, your value system is speaking louder than your nuance is, again.
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wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 16:50 last edited by Doctor Phibes 4 Apr 2021, 16:51
It's not just about honour killing, which I would hope everybody would say is a very bad thing, it's about girls and young women becoming completely ostracized from their families.
Obviously, outlawing virginity tests isn't going to change attitudes in of itself, but it sends a message that this isn't what we do.
Anyway, it's up to the French what they do, and a bunch of Americans telling them they're wrong is going to have about as much effect as renaming your French fries - which I'm sure we can all agree was a particularly meaningless bit of symbolism.
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@copper said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Assault, murder, extortion, kidnapping, threats, stalking - all, and more, illegal.
Why outlaw a specifically religious activity, especially if all parties consent?
Because they don't consent. They are forced to be tested, too.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 16:55 last edited by@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
@copper said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Assault, murder, extortion, kidnapping, threats, stalking - all, and more, illegal.
Why outlaw a specifically religious activity, especially if all parties consent?
Because they don't consent. They are forced to be tested, too.
Wouldn't that be some kind of assault?
I'd really be surprised if current laws didn't protect the woman.
Maybe not.
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It's not just about honour killing, which I would hope everybody would say is a very bad thing, it's about girls and young women becoming completely ostracized from their families.
Obviously, outlawing virginity tests isn't going to change attitudes in of itself, but it sends a message that this isn't what we do.
Anyway, it's up to the French what they do, and a bunch of Americans telling them they're wrong is going to have about as much effect as renaming your French fries - which I'm sure we can all agree was a particularly meaningless bit of symbolism.
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 17:45 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
It's not just about honour killing, which I would hope everybody would say is a very bad thing, it's about girls and young women becoming completely ostracized from their families.
Obviously, outlawing virginity tests isn't going to change attitudes in of itself, but it sends a message that this isn't what we do.
Anyway, it's up to the French what they do, and a bunch of Americans telling them they're wrong is going to have about as much effect as renaming your French fries - which I'm sure we can all agree was a particularly meaningless bit of symbolism.
Then maybe they need to be ostracized from their families. Then, maybe the practice dies as they marry nice French lads and produce children of their own...
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@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
It's not just about honour killing, which I would hope everybody would say is a very bad thing, it's about girls and young women becoming completely ostracized from their families.
Obviously, outlawing virginity tests isn't going to change attitudes in of itself, but it sends a message that this isn't what we do.
Anyway, it's up to the French what they do, and a bunch of Americans telling them they're wrong is going to have about as much effect as renaming your French fries - which I'm sure we can all agree was a particularly meaningless bit of symbolism.
Then maybe they need to be ostracized from their families. Then, maybe the practice dies as they marry nice French lads and produce children of their own...
wrote on 4 Apr 2021, 18:28 last edited by@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:
Then maybe they need to be ostracized from their families.
For not taking advice from a few Americans?