The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...
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@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
What I object to is him telling other people what to do. He's telling them to take the risk. He can do what he likes with his own risk.
(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily agree with the objection to the J&J vaccine on moral grounds, at all.)
However, consider this line of thought.
- There exists a potential for saving the lives of many people.
- That potential exists because you murder someone.
- Is is morally acceptable to kill that person to save others' lives?
- If the other person had been killed by an immoral act, is it acceptable to use his death to your advantage?
- Which way should the trolley go?
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 00:32 last edited by@george-k said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
What I object to is him telling other people what to do. He's telling them to take the risk. He can do what he likes with his own risk.
(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily agree with the objection to the J&J vaccine on moral grounds, at all.)
However, consider this line of thought.
- There exists a potential for saving the lives of many people.
- That potential exists because you murder someone.
- Is is morally acceptable to kill that person to save others' lives?
- If the other person had been killed by an immoral act, is it acceptable to use his death to your advantage?
- Which way should the trolley go?
Boenhoeffer smiled.
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@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
What I object to is him telling other people what to do. He's telling them to take the risk. He can do what he likes with his own risk.
(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily agree with the objection to the J&J vaccine on moral grounds, at all.)
However, consider this line of thought.
- There exists a potential for saving the lives of many people.
- That potential exists because you murder someone.
- Is is morally acceptable to kill that person to save others' lives?
- If the other person had been killed by an immoral act, is it acceptable to use his death to your advantage?
- Which way should the trolley go?
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 01:32 last edited by Doctor Phibes 3 Apr 2021, 01:37@george-k said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
What I object to is him telling other people what to do. He's telling them to take the risk. He can do what he likes with his own risk.
(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily agree with the objection to the J&J vaccine on moral grounds, at all.)
However, consider this line of thought.
- There exists a potential for saving the lives of many people.
- That potential exists because you murder someone.
- Is is morally acceptable to kill that person to save others' lives?
- If the other person had been killed by an immoral act, is it acceptable to use his death to your advantage?
- Which way should the trolley go?
The abortion's already happened. It would have happened whether or not Covid occurred. Nobody's being killed to develop vaccines. Also, whether you have the shot or not doesn't make the slightest difference at this point.
Was it wrong to use Nazi rocket science to put a man on the moon? The knowledge was there, whether or not America used it. If they hadn't, the Soviets would have done. Whether or not Apollo 11 was developed, von-Braun's slaves were already dead.
In other words, the bad thing's already happened. Whether you choose for something positive come out of it won't reverse it.
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@george-k said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
What I object to is him telling other people what to do. He's telling them to take the risk. He can do what he likes with his own risk.
(Disclaimer: I don't necessarily agree with the objection to the J&J vaccine on moral grounds, at all.)
However, consider this line of thought.
- There exists a potential for saving the lives of many people.
- That potential exists because you murder someone.
- Is is morally acceptable to kill that person to save others' lives?
- If the other person had been killed by an immoral act, is it acceptable to use his death to your advantage?
- Which way should the trolley go?
The abortion's already happened. It would have happened whether or not Covid occurred. Nobody's being killed to develop vaccines. Also, whether you have the shot or not doesn't make the slightest difference at this point.
Was it wrong to use Nazi rocket science to put a man on the moon? The knowledge was there, whether or not America used it. If they hadn't, the Soviets would have done. Whether or not Apollo 11 was developed, von-Braun's slaves were already dead.
In other words, the bad thing's already happened. Whether you choose for something positive come out of it won't reverse it.
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 01:37 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
The abortion's already happened. It would have happened whether or not Covid occurred.
Good point. Supposedly these cells are at least a decade old.
Is it immoral to take advantage of a "crime" that occurred before the question arose?
As I said, I'm not agreeing with the thinking, just trying to flesh out the arguments against, as well as pro.
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wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 01:38 last edited by Doctor Phibes 3 Apr 2021, 01:39
If there were no other alternatives to this particular vaccine, would this Bishop still tell people not to take it?
Millions could die needlessly in that situation.
It's very hard to describe that position as being 'pro-life'.
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If there were no other alternatives to this particular vaccine, would this Bishop still tell people not to take it?
Millions could die needlessly in that situation.
It's very hard to describe that position as being 'pro-life'.
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 01:47 last edited by Renauda 3 Apr 2021, 01:50@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
If there were no other alternatives to this particular vaccine, would this Bishop still tell people not to take it?
That is a very good question. My hunch is that he would advise against.
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If there were no other alternatives to this particular vaccine, would this Bishop still tell people not to take it?
Millions could die needlessly in that situation.
It's very hard to describe that position as being 'pro-life'.
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 01:58 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
If there were no other alternatives to this particular vaccine, would this Bishop still tell people not to take it?
Millions could die needlessly in that situation.
It's very hard to describe that position as being 'pro-life'.
Ah, but there is an alternative...
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@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
If there were no other alternatives to this particular vaccine, would this Bishop still tell people not to take it?
Millions could die needlessly in that situation.
It's very hard to describe that position as being 'pro-life'.
Ah, but there is an alternative...
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 02:18 last edited by@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Ah, but there is an alternative...
Is that alternative available to everyone?
How many would get sick because of that unavailability, and how many would die?
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@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Ah, but there is an alternative...
Is that alternative available to everyone?
How many would get sick because of that unavailability, and how many would die?
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 03:03 last edited by@george-k said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Ah, but there is an alternative...
Is that alternative available to everyone?
How many would get sick because of that unavailability, and how many would die?
If you wait, the alternative will be available.
And some hills may be worth dying on.
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wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 03:12 last edited by Doctor Phibes 3 Apr 2021, 03:12
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
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Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 03:23 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
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@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 03:31 last edited by@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
Vatican says it's cool.
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wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 03:43 last edited by
I’ll give you immorality....
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@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 11:30 last edited by Doctor Phibes 3 Apr 2021, 11:33@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
So I shouldn't criticise anything the RC church has done through the centuries?
And the Pope has said using the vaccine is acceptable.
He's picked a fine time to develop independent thought.
Is it OK to put people at risk over your religious beliefs?
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wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 13:02 last edited by
Probably the only song ever written about fetal stem cells.
And it kicks ass! Spend the time with it. Imagine trying to perform this live. It's worth it. I found a video with lyrics.
Link to video -
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 13:09 last edited by
Question 1) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a donor that had been murdered?
Question 2) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a Doctor that purchased the kidney from a murderer?
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@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
So I shouldn't criticise anything the RC church has done through the centuries?
And the Pope has said using the vaccine is acceptable.
He's picked a fine time to develop independent thought.
Is it OK to put people at risk over your religious beliefs?
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 13:13 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
So I shouldn't criticise anything the RC church has done through the centuries?
And the Pope has said using the vaccine is acceptable.
He's picked a fine time to develop independent thought.
Is it OK to put people at risk over your religious beliefs?
You can criticize, but you don't have their belief system. It's an ethical question for them. On one hand, the fact that your vaccine is made from aborted babies is indisputable. On the other, whether a Catholic becomes infected or not, and whether they transmit the disease is not complete certainty.
Lastly, and most importantly, there are other vaccines available, especially to the most vulnerable and especially at this time.
Medical ethics is not always one-fits-all .
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Question 1) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a donor that had been murdered?
Question 2) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a Doctor that purchased the kidney from a murderer?
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 13:33 last edited by@lufins-dad said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Question 1) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a donor that had been murdered?
Question 2) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a Doctor that purchased the kidney from a murderer?
The actual question is whether you would tell other people not to accept a kidney transplant from somebody who was murdered. As I said before, the Bishop can do what he likes with his own life.
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@lufins-dad said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Question 1) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a donor that had been murdered?
Question 2) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a Doctor that purchased the kidney from a murderer?
The actual question is whether you would tell other people not to accept a kidney transplant from somebody who was murdered. As I said before, the Bishop can do what he likes with his own life.
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 13:42 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@lufins-dad said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Question 1) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a donor that had been murdered?
Question 2) Would you accept a kidney transplant from a Doctor that purchased the kidney from a murderer?
The actual question is whether you would tell other people not to accept a kidney transplant from somebody who was murdered. As I said before, the Bishop can do what he likes with his own life.
No, it’s ad’s advising them not to get the transplant from a hospital that purchases organs from traffickers that do the killing. And that is a different ethical question.
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@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
@doctor-phibes said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Again, if he wants to die on it, that's his choice. Don't tell other people to die on it. Some of whom may be at greater risk than he is.
I'm not Catholic. And neither are you.
So I shouldn't criticise anything the RC church has done through the centuries?
And the Pope has said using the vaccine is acceptable.
He's picked a fine time to develop independent thought.
Is it OK to put people at risk over your religious beliefs?
You can criticize, but you don't have their belief system. It's an ethical question for them. On one hand, the fact that your vaccine is made from aborted babies is indisputable. On the other, whether a Catholic becomes infected or not, and whether they transmit the disease is not complete certainty.
Lastly, and most importantly, there are other vaccines available, especially to the most vulnerable and especially at this time.
Medical ethics is not always one-fits-all .
wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 13:53 last edited by@jolly said in The Immorality of the J&J Vaccine ...:
Medical ethics is not always one-fits-all .
This is true.
I also think the Jehovah's witnesses are misguided idiots regarding their opinions regarding blood transfusions.
Anybody care to defend them?
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wrote on 4 Mar 2021, 17:19 last edited by
I'll defend their right to make the choice
Other than that, they're on their own
