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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Hamas attacks Israel

Hamas attacks Israel

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  • MikM Offline
    MikM Offline
    Mik
    wrote last edited by
    #1368

    National building. We never learn.

    "The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Offline
      MikM Offline
      Mik
      wrote last edited by
      #1369

      PA approves it.

      https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/palestinian-authority-responds-to-trump-gaza-peace-plan/ar-AA1NAhNO

      "The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil

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      • jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nycJ Online
        jon-nyc
        wrote last edited by
        #1370

        Yeah, because it’s their path to controlling Gaza.

        If you don't take it, it can only good happen.

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        • MikM Offline
          MikM Offline
          Mik
          wrote last edited by
          #1371

          Of course.

          "The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil

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          • jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nyc
            wrote last edited by
            #1372

            1397815f-658d-4289-92d5-6bd858abd707.jpeg

            If you don't take it, it can only good happen.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Offline
              MikM Offline
              Mik
              wrote last edited by
              #1373

              If it were genocide it would have been over a year or so ago.

              "The intelligent man who is proud of his intelligence is like the condemned man who is proud of his large cell." Simone Weil

              kluursK 1 Reply Last reply
              • MikM Mik

                If it were genocide it would have been over a year or so ago.

                kluursK Online
                kluursK Online
                kluurs
                wrote last edited by
                #1374

                @Mik said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                If it were genocide it would have been over a year or so ago.

                It all depends on whether one uses a personal definition or the one that the UN, the International Association of Genocide Scholars, Holocaust Museum, The Center for Constitutional Rights (CCR - U.S.), The International Court of Justice (ICJ), B'Tselem (The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories), Physicians for Human Rights-Israel, Jewish Voice for Peace - to name a few entities who have defined Israel's activities as a genocide.

                Norman Finkelstein, a Jewish scholar of the Palestine situation, notes that 47% of Jews in Israel supported genocide in Gaza - i.e. asking if everyone in a city should be killed, answered "yes". Asked if there are "any innocents in Gaza?", 70% of Jewish Israelis answered "no". He also notes that's why the IDF "targets" toddlers. A member of the Jewish opposition stated that IDF soldiers kill children as a "hobby".

                But one can argue that an alternative definition as employed by many mainstream Jewish organizations in the US don't accept that Israel is committing genocide. It's a bit like the word "myth" - one can say that Christianity is based on myth - meaning a narrative which need not be based on fact, but some would argue that "myth" is a falsehood. One's definition leads to different answers.

                Genocide - using the above definition, has been pervasive throughout history. The US is based on genocide of many native peoples. The early Zionists knew that genocide would be necessary and discussed it openly - though avoiding the term. Ugly business. Good luck to all involved.

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                • jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote last edited by
                  #1375

                  Honestly it’s like calling a glance at a black woman’s hair ‘white supremacy’.

                  You take a word with a well understood and emotionally charged meaning and apply it to something very different with the hopes of getting some of the stink of the word on the new thing.

                  Of course it also cheapens the word if you’re successful.

                  This tweet pithily demonstrates that since most of us still assign to the word the original horror it was meant to convey, but there’s a palpable absurdity in its use given Hamas is taking days to decide whether it wants it to end and will probably not quite get there. After all, there’s hunger, and there’s release-the-hostages hunger. Their famine seems to be somewhere between the two.

                  If you don't take it, it can only good happen.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • kluursK Online
                    kluursK Online
                    kluurs
                    wrote last edited by
                    #1376

                    Kind of like "antisemitism" - which may be an even more disenchanting rabbit hole to dive down.

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                    • kluursK Online
                      kluursK Online
                      kluurs
                      wrote last edited by
                      #1377

                      Imagine if Germany had won WWII and as part of an agreement with Mexico - California, Texas, New Mexico, Oklahoma and Arizona were returned to Mexico. Individuals living in those states would be confined to a narrow area along the coast of California - would Americans accept that that the native Indians had lived here for 14000 years and were rightfully occupying their land? Yeah, I'm sure. Not to say that Genocide isn't the answer- but it was always going to be an ugly business - and Israel's founders as well as many throughout the world knew it would be a problem.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nycJ Online
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote last edited by jon-nyc
                        #1378

                        As Yuval Noah Harari has said it’s not a border dispute, there’s enough land for both peoples. It’s a conflict of narratives and as such is intractable.

                        While two states is the only eventual solution (since neither people are going anywhere) it seems like we’ve never been further from that in my lifetime.

                        If you don't take it, it can only good happen.

                        kluursK 1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          As Yuval Noah Harari has said it’s not a border dispute, there’s enough land for both peoples. It’s a conflict of narratives and as such is intractable.

                          While two states is the only eventual solution (since neither people are going anywhere) it seems like we’ve never been further from that in my lifetime.

                          kluursK Online
                          kluursK Online
                          kluurs
                          wrote last edited by kluurs
                          #1379

                          @jon-nyc said in Hamas attacks Israel:

                          As Yuval Noah Harari has said it’s not a border dispute, there’s enough land for both peoples. It’s a conflict of narratives and as such is intractable.

                          While two states is the only eventual solution (since neither people are going anywhere) it seems like we’ve never been further from that in my lifetime.

                          Not entirely true. Look at the West Bank - settlers continue to steal secure additional land for no compensation. Listen to the Israeli officials and view the patches on Israeli soldiers showing a "greater Israel" comprising territory of several nations.

                          Israel has a blank check of armament and support from the most powerful nation in the world.

                          Truth be told, Israel will get whatever it wants - BUT, there will be a cost even if Israel manages to influence/edit/quash/purchase social and mainstream media.

                          Like many on the right, I preferred the days of watching a world based on the principles of Andy Griffith and Mayberry - and maybe we'll get there - just no time soon. It's just hard to drink the Kool-Aid of good guys vs. bad guys in a more interconnected world.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nyc
                            wrote last edited by
                            #1380

                            I didn’t make myself understood. I guess I mean it doesn’t have to be a conflict over resources, though it is. But that’s more narrative driven. Both think god gave them the land.

                            If you don't take it, it can only good happen.

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