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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • RenaudaR Offline
    RenaudaR Offline
    Renauda
    wrote on last edited by Renauda
    #2379

    @Horace

    You are correct. The past year and a half or so of attrition has erased any illusions of a return to 2014 borders. Likewise NATO membership in the foreseeable future.

    The challenge in the armistice negotiations will be limiting Putin to what he already has occupied militarily and not a yard more. Likewise, the question of what Russia will demand as reparations from Ukraine and the West.

    Then the security guarantees for Ukraine. There can be no illusions on the part of the US that Russia will negotiate or agree to anything in good faith.

    Elbows up!

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Away
      MikM Away
      Mik
      wrote on last edited by
      #2380

      I'm afraid the best we can do is stop the fighting. But that only kicks the can down the road.

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #2381

        A generation or two of peace would be an unqualified good thing.

        Education is extremely important.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • MikM Away
          MikM Away
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #2382

          Depends on what happens upon Putin's demise. I see no indication things are likely to get much better.

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nycJ Online
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by
            #2383

            There was a cease fire in place October 6th February 23rd.

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Mik

              Depends on what happens upon Putin's demise. I see no indication things are likely to get much better.

              RenaudaR Offline
              RenaudaR Offline
              Renauda
              wrote on last edited by
              #2384

              @Mik

              Nor do I. However….it is Russia. Nothing is ever what it seems.

              Elbows up!

              1 Reply Last reply
              • MikM Away
                MikM Away
                Mik
                wrote on last edited by Mik
                #2385

                That's the rub in a nation where you need to conceal any ideas contrary to the current regime. Who knows if someone waiting in the wings has in mind a peaceful, prosperous Russia.

                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                1 Reply Last reply
                • HoraceH Horace

                  "But we must start by recognising that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.

                  "Chasing this illusionary goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering."

                  That is what I hear from everybody who seems serious on the subject.

                  jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nycJ Online
                  jon-nyc
                  wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                  #2386

                  @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                  "But we must start by recognising that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.

                  "Chasing this illusionary goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering."

                  That is what I hear from everybody who seems serious on the subject.

                  Smarter negotiators wouldn’t preemptively take options off the table before negotiations even start, such as this or NATO membership. He basically announced that negotiations will be over how much territory does Ukraine concede. For now.

                  Only non-witches get due process.

                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                  HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                    @Horace said in The Ukraine war thread:

                    "But we must start by recognising that returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.

                    "Chasing this illusionary goal will only prolong the war and cause more suffering."

                    That is what I hear from everybody who seems serious on the subject.

                    Smarter negotiators wouldn’t preemptively take options off the table before negotiations even start, such as this or NATO membership. He basically announced that negotiations will be over how much territory does Ukraine concede. For now.

                    HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #2387

                    @jon-nyc Non-serious options are of limited negotiating value.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nycJ Online
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                      #2388

                      NATO membership, or its future possibility, would be a realistic leverage point.

                      Only non-witches get due process.

                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                      JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                      • RenaudaR Offline
                        RenaudaR Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #2389

                        NATO membership sometime down the road must remain a possible option for Ukraine. Part of the security guarantee package for Ukraine ought to be ongoing assistance to Ukraine so that it may bring its armed forces into compliance with NATO standards. This process has already begun and the US must not let Russia put restrictions upon Ukraine in achieving this objective. The Kremlin will do everything possible in the coming negotiations to render Ukraine effectively defenceless and wholly subordinate to Moscow.

                        The Kremlin will demand much and offer little or nothing in return.

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                          NATO membership, or its future possibility, would be a realistic leverage point.

                          JollyJ Offline
                          JollyJ Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #2390

                          @jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

                          NATO membership, or its future possibility, would be a realistic leverage point.

                          Yep, would leverage us right into a full European war.

                          RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nycJ Online
                            jon-nyc
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #2391

                            The idea would be to give it up for something, not nothing. You know, art of the deal?

                            Only non-witches get due process.

                            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • JollyJ Jolly

                              @jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              NATO membership, or its future possibility, would be a realistic leverage point.

                              Yep, would leverage us right into a full European war.

                              RenaudaR Offline
                              RenaudaR Offline
                              Renauda
                              wrote on last edited by Renauda
                              #2392

                              @Jolly said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              @jon-nyc said in The Ukraine war thread:

                              NATO membership, or its future possibility, would be a realistic leverage point.

                              Yep, would leverage us right into a full European war.

                              Indeed, Putin would have you think that.

                              Putin also knows that as it stands, NATO is Russia’s best guarantee that its western borderlands are not only secure but safe from attack. It must have come as a relief to Putin when Finland joined NATO as it enabled him immediately to begin a withdrawal of a large contingent of ground forces stationed along the Karelian frontier.

                              But you probably either missed that fact altogether or chose not to take it into consideration as it does not fit your narrative. I suspect the latter.

                              Elbows up!

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nycJ Online
                                jon-nyc
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #2393

                                Only non-witches get due process.

                                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • RenaudaR Offline
                                  RenaudaR Offline
                                  Renauda
                                  wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                  #2394

                                  Putin Won’t Settle for Less than a Betrayal of Ukraine

                                  But there would have to be an agreement on ending the war in Ukraine, or else the summit would fail. What would such an agreement look like? Putin’s demands are clear, and they would require significant concessions from the United States — concessions that, if granted, would leave Ukraine adrift and at Russia’s mercy.

                                  The first item on Putin’s wish list would be the recognition (including by Ukraine) of Russia’s territorial gains. He would insist on keeping all the territories Russia currently occupies, as well as those he has formally annexed but not yet fully controls. This is a prospect Zelensky has repeatedly rejected. It goes without saying that Ukraine would be asked to withdraw from Kursk, which it invaded, to dubious benefit, some months ago.

                                  Equally important would be Ukraine’s formal, permanent neutrality. This was a major sticking point during the Istanbul negotiations in the spring of 2022. At the time, Ukraine sought real security guarantees to prevent future Russian aggression. Russia, however, insisted on a mechanism that would allow it to be consulted — and potentially veto — any Ukrainian request for external assistance.

                                  Putin would likely agree only to meaningless guarantees — ones that could not be effectively invoked if Russia were to launch another attack. As in Istanbul, he would want to leave Russia and its potential partners (like China and Belarus) in a position to veto any Ukrainian request for external assistance. For that reason, it is very doubtful that Putin would ever agree to a European peacekeeping contingent to enforce the agreement.

                                  Would Trump agree to such a framework? If he did, it would amount to a betrayal of Ukraine and would leave the country defenseless against future aggression.

                                  https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/02/13/putin-wont-settle-for-less-than-a-us-betrayal-of-ukraine-a87994

                                  Elbows up!

                                  jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • MikM Away
                                    MikM Away
                                    Mik
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #2395

                                    Which is all he really wants - time to strengthen the economy and restore the military.

                                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • RenaudaR Renauda

                                      Putin Won’t Settle for Less than a Betrayal of Ukraine

                                      But there would have to be an agreement on ending the war in Ukraine, or else the summit would fail. What would such an agreement look like? Putin’s demands are clear, and they would require significant concessions from the United States — concessions that, if granted, would leave Ukraine adrift and at Russia’s mercy.

                                      The first item on Putin’s wish list would be the recognition (including by Ukraine) of Russia’s territorial gains. He would insist on keeping all the territories Russia currently occupies, as well as those he has formally annexed but not yet fully controls. This is a prospect Zelensky has repeatedly rejected. It goes without saying that Ukraine would be asked to withdraw from Kursk, which it invaded, to dubious benefit, some months ago.

                                      Equally important would be Ukraine’s formal, permanent neutrality. This was a major sticking point during the Istanbul negotiations in the spring of 2022. At the time, Ukraine sought real security guarantees to prevent future Russian aggression. Russia, however, insisted on a mechanism that would allow it to be consulted — and potentially veto — any Ukrainian request for external assistance.

                                      Putin would likely agree only to meaningless guarantees — ones that could not be effectively invoked if Russia were to launch another attack. As in Istanbul, he would want to leave Russia and its potential partners (like China and Belarus) in a position to veto any Ukrainian request for external assistance. For that reason, it is very doubtful that Putin would ever agree to a European peacekeeping contingent to enforce the agreement.

                                      Would Trump agree to such a framework? If he did, it would amount to a betrayal of Ukraine and would leave the country defenseless against future aggression.

                                      https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2025/02/13/putin-wont-settle-for-less-than-a-us-betrayal-of-ukraine-a87994

                                      jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nycJ Online
                                      jon-nyc
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #2396

                                      @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

                                      Putin Won’t Settle for Less than a Betrayal of Ukraine

                                      Seems like he got that this week.

                                      Only non-witches get due process.

                                      • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • RenaudaR Offline
                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        Renauda
                                        wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                        #2397

                                        @jon-nyc

                                        Am sure there are more goodies and rewards in the basket for Putin.

                                        Apparently Russia is the aggrieved victim in this war because Ukraine had the audacity to defend itself when attacked.

                                        Elbows up!

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                          NATO membership, or its future possibility, would be a realistic leverage point.

                                          JollyJ Offline
                                          JollyJ Offline
                                          Jolly
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #2398
                                          This post is deleted!
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