Actions Have Consequences
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I don't lose sight of the fact that Generals are bureaucratic social climbers first. That is their core competency. I'm sure as children we all thought they were the master battlefield strategists and maybe it was true at some point in history. Not anymore. I can easily believe that Milley just got swept up in TDS moral panic, and acted as a prisoner of his own self-righteousness as he broke his oaths and rules. That would be a very human flaw, and one that he should by rights pay a price for. I am glad they are doing this investigation.
I've heard VDH discuss at length recently his observation that the top levels of the military are as captured by progressive ideology as any university.
@Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:
That would be a very human flaw, and one that he should by rights pay a price for. I am glad they are doing this investigation.
Yeah Milley said a few years ago he was fine with whatever consequences faced him, as he was doing the right thing. I don't really blame him. He kept things with China calm when they were getting false intelligence that a military strike was being considered. Such actions were taken in October 1962 (aka Stevenson the missile crisis).
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@89th What order exactly did Milley resist? It seems he was breaking oaths and rules out of "an abundance of caution", from the perspective of someone who swallowed catastrophic thought experiments about what existential threat orange guy might do. I.e. TDS.
@Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:
@89th What order exactly did Milley resist? It seems he was breaking oaths and rules out of "an abundance of caution", from the perspective of someone who swallowed catastrophic thought experiments about what existential threat orange guy might do. I.e. TDS.
I was responding to Jolly's "follow orders" remark. I'd imagine he'd whistle a different tune if Milley did the same to Biden. But I've made that remark before about how his views would be different had it been BLM breaking into the Capitol after Obama lost reelection.
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This is a perfect example of the guys choosing to stay are the ones that most need to go…
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@Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:
Milley is a general. Unless the order is unlawful or what you consider immoral, and does not rise to the level of a domestic enemy of the country, you salute and carry out the order or resign.
I'm sure you'll say yes because you're a good soldier, but if last month Biden ordered the military to drop a nuke on Delaware because of those dangerous bike paths, or let's pick a random country like Spain, should Milley have resisted?
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
@Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:
Milley is a general. Unless the order is unlawful or what you consider immoral, and does not rise to the level of a domestic enemy of the country, you salute and carry out the order or resign.
I'm sure you'll say yes because you're a good soldier, but if last month Biden ordered the military to drop a nuke on Delaware because of those dangerous bike paths, or let's pick a random country like Spain, should Milley have resisted?
Seriously?
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Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
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Trump was as desperate as a tiger in a cage, there is no telling what kind of drastic order he might have made, all in attempts to save his own ass at the expense of the country. TDS is real, just not what the acronym was originally intended. I feel for you though, Water carrying is real work. I wonder what the tipping point might be , if a tipping point even exists. Milley is a patriot and a hero in my book. A green beret to boot. not some paper pusher his whole career.
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Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.
Education is extremely important.
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Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.
What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?
Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.
“Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”
Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton
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@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.
What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?
Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.
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@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.
@Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.
You may very well be right. I don't exactly have the biggest faith in an investigation...do you really think if the conclusion that "Milley was totally justified in not trusting Trump", that Trump would allow it to be published? Again, Trump had Milley's portrait at the Pentagon removed, the wall spackled, and painted... because his feelings were hurt.
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@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.
What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?
Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.
@Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.
What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?
Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.
Ha you bring up Patton. The guy who sent a task force in to rescue his son in law, which was a total failure and resulted in the death of 32 soldiers, 240 POWs, loss of 57 tanks. But yes, the call to Milley's chinese counterpart about "hey, FYI no rush but we aren't gonna attack you like your intel says we are" was bad.
And I'm a fan of Patton.
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But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.
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But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.
Sometimes, when you're apparently completely surrounded by assholes, you've got to think 'Maybe it's me?'.
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But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.
I don't give a flying fuck what they suffering from or not suffering from. Do your job or resign. If you think Trump is nuts, initiate the Constitutional procedure to have him removed.
Anything less undermines civilian control of the military. Now, use your brain for a second and consider what you have as that camel's nose comes under the tent...
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Milley drafted his resignation letter but thought it was his duty to protect the country from within. I can understand why what he did had consequences, as he fully knew as he stated... but China didn't attack in January 2021 did they? Ok cheap question, that's non-evidence, but what is evidence are all of the top military brass agreeing with Milley, that is not a coincidence. Milley can't initiate the 25th amendment either. You just don't like him because he did this to your guy, but if he did it to a barely conscious Biden, you'd be saying he did his duty to the country.
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@Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.
You may very well be right. I don't exactly have the biggest faith in an investigation...do you really think if the conclusion that "Milley was totally justified in not trusting Trump", that Trump would allow it to be published? Again, Trump had Milley's portrait at the Pentagon removed, the wall spackled, and painted... because his feelings were hurt.
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
@Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:
@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.
You may very well be right. I don't exactly have the biggest faith in an investigation...do you really think if the conclusion that "Milley was totally justified in not trusting Trump", that Trump would allow it to be published? Again, Trump had Milley's portrait at the Pentagon removed, the wall spackled, and painted... because his feelings were hurt.
I'd be happy to just hear him speak in his own defense about why he thought the threat of Trump dropping nukes on China was imminent and serious enough to advertise to China just how unhinged he believes his Commander in Chief to be, and how he is willing to take sides against him should the situation demand it. I would very much like to hear his justification for that. Because from my side, it's smelling very much like the moral panic of a mediocre mind.
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Not sure it was about dropping nukes, but that the Chinese had intel that the US was considering a surprise kinetic action and he wanted to assure his counterpart that the intel was false. Honestly, before all this I presumed diplomats already did this back channel chatter... in fact, I know they do. But perhaps it's different from the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs.
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@89th said in Actions Have Consequences:
Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.
Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.
What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?
Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.
@Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:
Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.
What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?
Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.
But you were okay with Sec. Hegseth ignoring the military code of justice. (if that is the proper term)
In something like the military expecially, the rules have to be followed or there are consequences.
