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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Actions Have Consequences

Actions Have Consequences

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  • JollyJ Jolly

    @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

    So instead of resigning (like most of Trump's nominees over the years once they get to know him), Milley decided to stay and fight from within against actions such as deploying the military against protestors and being concerned about Trump's mental state and his ability to order nuclear strikes (right @taiwan_girl ? this is what we discussed earlier if it's possible to stop a presidential order to drop a nuke on a country). Milley knew there would be consequences, as he said openly, and I'm sure he sleeps fine at night knowing he was doing his duty as he saw it. If Bolton or Milley or others get assassinated, you wonder if Trump would apologize (I know...).

    Milley is a general. Unless the order is unlawful or what you consider immoral, and does not rise to the level of a domestic enemy of the country, you salute and carry out the order or resign.

    He did not. He deserves whatever shit shower that reigns down upon him.

    89th8 Offline
    89th8 Offline
    89th
    wrote on last edited by
    #7

    @Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:

    Milley is a general. Unless the order is unlawful or what you consider immoral, and does not rise to the level of a domestic enemy of the country, you salute and carry out the order or resign.

    I'm sure you'll say yes because you're a good soldier, but if last month Biden ordered the military to drop a nuke on Delaware because of those dangerous bike paths, or let's pick a random country like Spain, should Milley have resisted?

    HoraceH JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
    • 89th8 89th

      @Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:

      Milley is a general. Unless the order is unlawful or what you consider immoral, and does not rise to the level of a domestic enemy of the country, you salute and carry out the order or resign.

      I'm sure you'll say yes because you're a good soldier, but if last month Biden ordered the military to drop a nuke on Delaware because of those dangerous bike paths, or let's pick a random country like Spain, should Milley have resisted?

      HoraceH Online
      HoraceH Online
      Horace
      wrote on last edited by
      #8

      @89th What order exactly did Milley resist? It seems he was breaking oaths and rules out of "an abundance of caution", from the perspective of someone who swallowed catastrophic thought experiments about what existential threat orange guy might do. I.e. TDS.

      Education is extremely important.

      89th8 1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Horace

        I don't lose sight of the fact that Generals are bureaucratic social climbers first. That is their core competency. I'm sure as children we all thought they were the master battlefield strategists and maybe it was true at some point in history. Not anymore. I can easily believe that Milley just got swept up in TDS moral panic, and acted as a prisoner of his own self-righteousness as he broke his oaths and rules. That would be a very human flaw, and one that he should by rights pay a price for. I am glad they are doing this investigation.

        I've heard VDH discuss at length recently his observation that the top levels of the military are as captured by progressive ideology as any university.

        89th8 Offline
        89th8 Offline
        89th
        wrote on last edited by
        #9

        @Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:

        That would be a very human flaw, and one that he should by rights pay a price for. I am glad they are doing this investigation.

        Yeah Milley said a few years ago he was fine with whatever consequences faced him, as he was doing the right thing. I don't really blame him. He kept things with China calm when they were getting false intelligence that a military strike was being considered. Such actions were taken in October 1962 (aka Stevenson the missile crisis).

        1 Reply Last reply
        • HoraceH Horace

          @89th What order exactly did Milley resist? It seems he was breaking oaths and rules out of "an abundance of caution", from the perspective of someone who swallowed catastrophic thought experiments about what existential threat orange guy might do. I.e. TDS.

          89th8 Offline
          89th8 Offline
          89th
          wrote on last edited by
          #10

          @Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:

          @89th What order exactly did Milley resist? It seems he was breaking oaths and rules out of "an abundance of caution", from the perspective of someone who swallowed catastrophic thought experiments about what existential threat orange guy might do. I.e. TDS.

          I was responding to Jolly's "follow orders" remark. I'd imagine he'd whistle a different tune if Milley did the same to Biden. But I've made that remark before about how his views would be different had it been BLM breaking into the Capitol after Obama lost reelection.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins Dad
            wrote on last edited by
            #11

            This is a perfect example of the guys choosing to stay are the ones that most need to go…

            The Brad

            1 Reply Last reply
            • 89th8 89th

              @Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:

              Milley is a general. Unless the order is unlawful or what you consider immoral, and does not rise to the level of a domestic enemy of the country, you salute and carry out the order or resign.

              I'm sure you'll say yes because you're a good soldier, but if last month Biden ordered the military to drop a nuke on Delaware because of those dangerous bike paths, or let's pick a random country like Spain, should Milley have resisted?

              JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #12

              @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

              @Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:

              Milley is a general. Unless the order is unlawful or what you consider immoral, and does not rise to the level of a domestic enemy of the country, you salute and carry out the order or resign.

              I'm sure you'll say yes because you're a good soldier, but if last month Biden ordered the military to drop a nuke on Delaware because of those dangerous bike paths, or let's pick a random country like Spain, should Milley have resisted?

              Seriously? 😒

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              1 Reply Last reply
              • 89th8 Offline
                89th8 Offline
                89th
                wrote on last edited by
                #13

                Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                HoraceH JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                • N Offline
                  N Offline
                  NobodySock
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #14

                  Trump was as desperate as a tiger in a cage, there is no telling what kind of drastic order he might have made, all in attempts to save his own ass at the expense of the country. TDS is real, just not what the acronym was originally intended. I feel for you though, Water carrying is real work. I wonder what the tipping point might be , if a tipping point even exists. Milley is a patriot and a hero in my book. A green beret to boot. not some paper pusher his whole career.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • 89th8 89th

                    Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                    HoraceH Online
                    HoraceH Online
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #15

                    @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                    Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                    I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    89th8 1 Reply Last reply
                    • CopperC Offline
                      CopperC Offline
                      Copper
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #16

                      The general was smarter than everyone else.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • RenaudaR Offline
                        RenaudaR Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #17

                        Certainly smarter than…..never mind….it is of no consequence anyway.

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • 89th8 89th

                          Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                          JollyJ Offline
                          JollyJ Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #18

                          @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                          Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                          Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.

                          What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?

                          Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.

                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                          CopperC 89th8 taiwan_girlT 3 Replies Last reply
                          • JollyJ Jolly

                            @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                            Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                            Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.

                            What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?

                            Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.

                            CopperC Offline
                            CopperC Offline
                            Copper
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #19

                            @Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:

                            Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.

                            He couldn't afford it now.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • HoraceH Horace

                              @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                              Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                              I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.

                              89th8 Offline
                              89th8 Offline
                              89th
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #20

                              @Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:

                              @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                              Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                              I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.

                              You may very well be right. I don't exactly have the biggest faith in an investigation...do you really think if the conclusion that "Milley was totally justified in not trusting Trump", that Trump would allow it to be published? Again, Trump had Milley's portrait at the Pentagon removed, the wall spackled, and painted... because his feelings were hurt.

                              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                              • JollyJ Jolly

                                @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                                Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.

                                What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?

                                Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.

                                89th8 Offline
                                89th8 Offline
                                89th
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #21

                                @Jolly said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                                Milley is a soldier, subject to the chain of command the UCMJ. There is no excuse for actively trying to undermine your commanding officer, other than a refusal of orders as I have talked about previously.

                                What do you think Milley would have done if a captain under his command pulled similar crap to what he did?

                                Patton? Patton would have offered you a cigarette before having you shot.

                                Ha you bring up Patton. The guy who sent a task force in to rescue his son in law, which was a total failure and resulted in the death of 32 soldiers, 240 POWs, loss of 57 tanks. But yes, the call to Milley's chinese counterpart about "hey, FYI no rush but we aren't gonna attack you like your intel says we are" was bad.

                                And I'm a fan of Patton.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • 89th8 Offline
                                  89th8 Offline
                                  89th
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #22

                                  But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.

                                  Doctor PhibesD JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                                  • 89th8 89th

                                    But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.

                                    Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                    Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                    Doctor Phibes
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #23

                                    @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                    But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.

                                    Sometimes, when you're apparently completely surrounded by assholes, you've got to think 'Maybe it's me?'.

                                    I was only joking

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • 89th8 89th

                                      But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.

                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      Jolly
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #24

                                      @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                      But maybe Milley was wrong about Trump. Just as General "Mad Dog" Mattis (selected by Trump) was wrong by agreeing with Milley's assessment of Trump, as was General John Kelly (selected by Trump) and General McMaster (selected by Trump), and General McChrystal, and Admiral McRaven, and Admiral Mike Mullen... these are the top brass of the top brass in the military, but yes... they're all just suffering from TDS.

                                      I don't give a flying fuck what they suffering from or not suffering from. Do your job or resign. If you think Trump is nuts, initiate the Constitutional procedure to have him removed.

                                      Anything less undermines civilian control of the military. Now, use your brain for a second and consider what you have as that camel's nose comes under the tent...

                                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • 89th8 Offline
                                        89th8 Offline
                                        89th
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #25

                                        Milley drafted his resignation letter but thought it was his duty to protect the country from within. I can understand why what he did had consequences, as he fully knew as he stated... but China didn't attack in January 2021 did they? Ok cheap question, that's non-evidence, but what is evidence are all of the top military brass agreeing with Milley, that is not a coincidence. Milley can't initiate the 25th amendment either. You just don't like him because he did this to your guy, but if he did it to a barely conscious Biden, you'd be saying he did his duty to the country.

                                        JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • 89th8 89th

                                          @Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                          @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                          Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                                          I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.

                                          You may very well be right. I don't exactly have the biggest faith in an investigation...do you really think if the conclusion that "Milley was totally justified in not trusting Trump", that Trump would allow it to be published? Again, Trump had Milley's portrait at the Pentagon removed, the wall spackled, and painted... because his feelings were hurt.

                                          HoraceH Online
                                          HoraceH Online
                                          Horace
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #26

                                          @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                          @Horace said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                          @89th said in Actions Have Consequences:

                                          Yeah. Unless there's more to the story that I'm missing, Milley saw the chaos from a President refusing to accept his election loss, an assault on the Capitol, and the Chinese getting intel that Trump was thinking about a surprise attack so he contacted his counterpart over there to tell them to chill, everything will be fine. He said he was fine with the consequences of his actions as he saw Trump's mental state as being unstable. He'd do the same thing if it was Biden too, except Biden would purge him from the halls of the Pentagon because his feelings were hurt.

                                          I hope the investigation lays bare the precise reasons Milley had for breaking the chain of command and advertising to the Chinese that he's willing to take sides against the American commander in chief, should push come to shove. There should probably be really, really good reasons for that, beyond culturally inhaled TDS. But I suspect there will not be really, really good reasons.

                                          You may very well be right. I don't exactly have the biggest faith in an investigation...do you really think if the conclusion that "Milley was totally justified in not trusting Trump", that Trump would allow it to be published? Again, Trump had Milley's portrait at the Pentagon removed, the wall spackled, and painted... because his feelings were hurt.

                                          I'd be happy to just hear him speak in his own defense about why he thought the threat of Trump dropping nukes on China was imminent and serious enough to advertise to China just how unhinged he believes his Commander in Chief to be, and how he is willing to take sides against him should the situation demand it. I would very much like to hear his justification for that. Because from my side, it's smelling very much like the moral panic of a mediocre mind.

                                          Education is extremely important.

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