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  3. Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?

Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?

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  • AxtremusA Axtremus

    @89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    @Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    @Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    @Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.

    1. Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
    2. Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?

    Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.

    Agreed.

    I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.

    I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.

    Let’s take you back further in time.

    There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.

    You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.

    I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.

    So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”

    JollyJ Offline
    JollyJ Offline
    Jolly
    wrote on last edited by Jolly
    #31

    @Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    @89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    @Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    @Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    @Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

    When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.

    1. Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
    2. Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?

    Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.

    Agreed.

    I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.

    I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.

    Let’s take you back further in time.

    There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.

    You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.

    I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.

    So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”

    Let's take you into the future....The government has decided that the First Amendment does not apply to hate speech, as decided by a Supreme Court that had three Justices appointed by Joe Biden. The move was applauded by the junior senator from New York, AOC. The government will now dictate what constitutes hate speech and will punish people according to the law. Of course, there was nothing wrong in this.

    What a wonderful game of mish-mashed cherry picking we can have!

    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

    1 Reply Last reply
    • 89th8 Offline
      89th8 Offline
      89th
      wrote on last edited by
      #32

      @Axtremus I am simply referring to the protests...what are they trying to accomplish? Most demands seem to be to arrest the cops. Clearly this isn’t going to happen, and they’ve already stopped the no-knock warrant policies.

      But to your point, even under your comparisons, I stand by my position they didn’t do anything wrong. If I were a cop, and I was serving a warrant and when I entered the home I was shot at, I would shoot back. Case closed.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • AxtremusA Axtremus

        @89th said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

        @Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

        @Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

        @Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

        When an innocent person accidentally dies by cop, it doesn't necessarily follow that rules have to change.

        1. Was it really an “accident”? How do you know that is was really just an “accident”?
        2. Was it only one innocent person died by cop? What if it was 10, 100, 1000, or more innocent people died by cop?

        Right, it's that sort of vacuous thinking that helps people decide to defund the police. My point remains that given the stipulations in my post, your conclusion does not necessarily follow. But if it wasn't an accident and they intentionally killed her, then down with that sort of thing.

        Agreed.

        I’d add to that I give an enormous presumption here that cops aren’t killing black people based on the color of their skin. I’d wager I’m right in 99.9999999999% of the time.

        I’d also add that this what if what if what if perspective is what helps fuel a “arrest breonna’s killers!” narrative where by even Ax’s admission, the cops didn’t do anything wrong.

        Let’s take you back further in time.

        There was a time, when you could look at the “established procedures“ of the era and conclude that the individual slave traders, the individual slave drivers, the individual slave owners “didn’t do anything wrong” because they all operated according to the established procedures at the time. Later, we learnt and came to accept that slavery itself is wrong.

        You can also think back to the time just before the founding of the USA. The individual British tax collectors collecting taxes from the American colonies probably all followed established procedures at the time, and hence “didn’t do anything wrong.” But later we decided that “taxation without representation” is wrong.

        I can also go full Godwin and cite Nazi SS agents who followed “established procedures” at the time when systematically carrying out genocide against the Jews.

        So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”

        HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #33

        @Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

        So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”

        I doubt you'd find many people arguing vigorously in favor of these sorts of warrants. The question is whether to punish these cops, as 89th notes. So while you're courageously making a stand for virtue, how about you let us know whether you'd vote to convict these officers and send them to prison?

        Education is extremely important.

        L 1 Reply Last reply
        • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

          No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.

          MikM Offline
          MikM Offline
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #34

          @jon-nyc said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

          No-knock warrants seem to be a bad idea in general.

          It's part of the militarization of the police that has gone a bit far.

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          1 Reply Last reply
          • HoraceH Horace

            @Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

            So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”

            I doubt you'd find many people arguing vigorously in favor of these sorts of warrants. The question is whether to punish these cops, as 89th notes. So while you're courageously making a stand for virtue, how about you let us know whether you'd vote to convict these officers and send them to prison?

            L Offline
            L Offline
            Loki
            wrote on last edited by
            #35

            @Horace said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

            @Axtremus said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

            So when you look at a case like Breonna Taylor’s needless death and want to say “the cops didn’t do anything wrong,” think about those few parallels I gave you above, see if you would feel comfortable saying “the British tax collectors didn’t do anything wrong,” “the slave traders didn’t do anything wrong,” or “the SS agent didn’t do anything wrong.”

            I doubt you'd find many people arguing vigorously in favor of these sorts of warrants. The question is whether to punish these cops, as 89th notes. So while you're courageously making a stand for virtue, how about you let us know whether you'd vote to convict these officers and send them to prison?

            Again it is not the cops fault. Who ever approved the very risky no knock warrant is the person who should be the candidate for arrest. It is asserted that person fudged the facts.

            When the cops entered and where shot at all bets are off. Duh.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • Doctor PhibesD Offline
              Doctor PhibesD Offline
              Doctor Phibes
              wrote on last edited by
              #36

              I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

              Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

              I was only joking

              L George KG 2 Replies Last reply
              • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                L Offline
                L Offline
                Loki
                wrote on last edited by
                #37

                @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.

                Doctor PhibesD RenaudaR 2 Replies Last reply
                • L Loki

                  @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                  I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                  Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                  Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.

                  Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor PhibesD Offline
                  Doctor Phibes
                  wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                  #38

                  @Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                  @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                  I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                  Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                  Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.

                  No I didn't. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.

                  Of course, this isn't about me and what I think, but nice try.

                  I was only joking

                  L 1 Reply Last reply
                  • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                    @Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                    I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                    Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                    Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.

                    No I didn't. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.

                    Of course, this isn't about me and what I think, but nice try.

                    L Offline
                    L Offline
                    Loki
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #39

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                    @Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                    @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                    I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                    Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                    Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.

                    No I didn't. I thought it was absolutely ridiculous. You seem to be confusing me with somebody else.

                    Of course, this isn't about me and what I think, but nice try.

                    It’s not about you I agree. Maybe the media was appalled by the raid, I just don’t remember that being the narrative.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                      Doctor PhibesD Offline
                      Doctor Phibes
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #40

                      I don't actually watch American news media. If I want to be condescended to, I try to at least have it be done by somebody who isn't even dumber than I am.

                      I was only joking

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • LarryL Offline
                        LarryL Offline
                        Larry
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #41

                        Here's my take on this...

                        No knock warrants are needed ONLY when you have an extremely dangerous criminal to catch, you are 100% certain he's inside, 100% certain that any advance notice, even as little as a knock on the door, could result in someone's death. This case seems to not meet those requirements, to say the least. I don't know enough of the details to know why it happened, but I do know that it has taken far too long for anything to be done about it. This makes it look like the police are dragging their feet. People in that community have a right to be upset.

                        But there are ways to go about this legally and civilly. Having a bunch of hostile, angry at the world black guys show up carrying semiautomatic rifles is not one of those ways. They are the equivalent of a black KKK. If they didn't realize that by doing this they were literally inviting a race war with a group just like them only white, they're stupid.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • L Loki

                          @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                          I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                          Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                          Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.

                          RenaudaR Offline
                          RenaudaR Offline
                          Renauda
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #42

                          @Loki said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                          Where were you when the SWAT team came to Roger Stone’s door. Bet you thought that was funny and just.

                          Actually I did. I thought they had actually captured that arch villian, The Penguin!

                          Elbows up!

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                            I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                            Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                            George KG Offline
                            George KG Offline
                            George K
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #43

                            @Doctor-Phibes said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                            I thought the whole point of having all these guns was so that you could shoot people who broke down your front door in the middle of the night.

                            Apparently, you need to ask for ID first.

                            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • HoraceH Offline
                              HoraceH Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #44

                              Ax, what are your thoughts on that letter?

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • George KG Offline
                                George KG Offline
                                George K
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #45

                                "Simply put, the legislation gives officers NO ability to safely interned to preserve property in the midst of a large, violent crowd."

                                IOW, YOYO,MF.

                                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                Catseye3C 1 Reply Last reply
                                • George KG George K

                                  "Simply put, the legislation gives officers NO ability to safely interned to preserve property in the midst of a large, violent crowd."

                                  IOW, YOYO,MF.

                                  Catseye3C Offline
                                  Catseye3C Offline
                                  Catseye3
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #46

                                  @George-K said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                  the legislation gives officers NO ability to safely interned to preserve property

                                  George, I scrolled through the thread but find no reference to a letter (other than Horace's query). What are you quoting from?

                                  Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                                  George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • Catseye3C Catseye3

                                    @George-K said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                    the legislation gives officers NO ability to safely interned to preserve property

                                    George, I scrolled through the thread but find no reference to a letter (other than Horace's query). What are you quoting from?

                                    George KG Offline
                                    George KG Offline
                                    George K
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #47

                                    @Catseye3 said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                    What are you quoting from?

                                    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                    Catseye3C CopperC 2 Replies Last reply
                                    • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                      Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                      Doctor Phibes
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #48

                                      So the police want to further militarise themselves in order to deal with the riots, then they act more like military units at other times, which gives oxygen to the people looking for excuses to riot, and the cycle continues.

                                      When Obama was President, I remember a number of people here expressing concern about the continuing militarisation of the police. Seems to me like if it's a problem when the Dems are in power, it's most likely a problem when the Repubs are in power too.

                                      I was only joking

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • George KG George K

                                        @Catseye3 said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                        What are you quoting from?

                                        Catseye3C Offline
                                        Catseye3C Offline
                                        Catseye3
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #49

                                        @George-K said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                        What are you quoting from?

                                        Thanks.

                                        Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • George KG George K

                                          @Catseye3 said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                          What are you quoting from?

                                          CopperC Offline
                                          CopperC Offline
                                          Copper
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #50

                                          @George-K said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                          @Catseye3 said in Left and right wing militias facing off in Louisville today?:

                                          What are you quoting from?

                                          Chief Best graduated from Northeastern and shares my father's name who was a physics professor at Northeastern. Small world, and my father's brother was a Police Chief. She is probably OK.

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