Learning English is hard

[Aqua Letifer]

@George-K said in Learning English is hard:

I've read that English is a particularly difficult language to learn, because "rules" aren't rules.

As the King put it, English has a small but very greasy core of rules.

[89th]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

I wonder how those here, who had to learn English, like @Klaus and @Doctor-Phibes feel about this.

My 5 year old is learning how to read. She's doing quite good well.

Anyway... I am reminded very often now about how inconsistent the language is. Row row row your boat? Yes it has "ow" in it, but it sounds like "roe", not "r-ow". Oh how to spell 4, it's four, but just ignore the u. It's like for.... which rhymes with door, but that has two o's in it. Know (which is the same as No) what I mean?

Same here, she's reading her first stories. I try to get her to sound things out but as you illustrate, that's probably a very stupid way to go.

Yeah but you’re probably using books like Dune or Necromancer.

[Aqua Letifer]

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

I wonder how those here, who had to learn English, like @Klaus and @Doctor-Phibes feel about this.

My 5 year old is learning how to read. She's doing quite good well.

Anyway... I am reminded very often now about how inconsistent the language is. Row row row your boat? Yes it has "ow" in it, but it sounds like "roe", not "r-ow". Oh how to spell 4, it's four, but just ignore the u. It's like for.... which rhymes with door, but that has two o's in it. Know (which is the same as No) what I mean?

Same here, she's reading her first stories. I try to get her to sound things out but as you illustrate, that's probably a very stupid way to go.

Yeah but you’re probably using books like Dune or Necromancer.

Neuromancer but yeah, you're not far off.

[LuFins Dad]

@Renauda said in Learning English is hard:

@Doctor-Phibes

No sense getting into a row with 89 over It.

Don’t tease him too hard, or he’ll blush to a dark roux….

[LuFins Dad]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

I wonder how those here, who had to learn English, like @Klaus and @Doctor-Phibes feel about this.

My 5 year old is learning how to read. She's doing quite good well.

Anyway... I am reminded very often now about how inconsistent the language is. Row row row your boat? Yes it has "ow" in it, but it sounds like "roe", not "r-ow". Oh how to spell 4, it's four, but just ignore the u. It's like for.... which rhymes with door, but that has two o's in it. Know (which is the same as No) what I mean?

Same here, she's reading her first stories. I try to get her to sound things out but as you illustrate, that's probably a very stupid way to go.

Not really. Phonics is still the most effective method to teach reading https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/11/phonics-schools-students-read-learn/

[Aqua Letifer]

@LuFins-Dad said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

I wonder how those here, who had to learn English, like @Klaus and @Doctor-Phibes feel about this.

My 5 year old is learning how to read. She's doing quite good well.

Anyway... I am reminded very often now about how inconsistent the language is. Row row row your boat? Yes it has "ow" in it, but it sounds like "roe", not "r-ow". Oh how to spell 4, it's four, but just ignore the u. It's like for.... which rhymes with door, but that has two o's in it. Know (which is the same as No) what I mean?

Same here, she's reading her first stories. I try to get her to sound things out but as you illustrate, that's probably a very stupid way to go.

Not really. Phonics is still the most effective method to teach reading https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/11/phonics-schools-students-read-learn/

I really don't see how. Rough dough plough and all that. I don't see how that makes any sense to a kid.

But, that's what we do because it's (1) different from the school, so, hey, broader strategies and (2) shit it's how I was taught, so it's at least something I know.

[LuFins Dad]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@LuFins-Dad said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

I wonder how those here, who had to learn English, like @Klaus and @Doctor-Phibes feel about this.

My 5 year old is learning how to read. She's doing quite good well.

Anyway... I am reminded very often now about how inconsistent the language is. Row row row your boat? Yes it has "ow" in it, but it sounds like "roe", not "r-ow". Oh how to spell 4, it's four, but just ignore the u. It's like for.... which rhymes with door, but that has two o's in it. Know (which is the same as No) what I mean?

Same here, she's reading her first stories. I try to get her to sound things out but as you illustrate, that's probably a very stupid way to go.

Not really. Phonics is still the most effective method to teach reading https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/11/phonics-schools-students-read-learn/

I really don't see how. Rough dough plough and all that. I don't see how that makes any sense to a kid.

But, that's what we do because it's (1) different from the school, so, hey, broader strategies and (2) shit it's how I was taught, so it's at least something I know.

Simple. You’re focusing on the exceptions, which makes for the humor, but they are still the exceptions. They are few enough that they are easily gotten past through repetition.

I mean, we get past the same word having multiple meanings that are completely unrelated (the dove dove into the bush… There is a novel written about this novel idea… I hope the weather is fair at the fair.. I saw the saw saw his hand off….) a few silent e’s and ph that sounds like f aren’t that big of a deal.

[Renauda]

I have a most English family name, one that is not uncommon in a certain locale in the north of England. Most English pronounce it correctly at first attempt although Scots and Irish will sometimes muck it up but good. Invariably however North Americans rarely, if ever, pronounce it correctly. Nor do they ever seem to be able to learn how pronounce it correctly no matter how many times it is pronounced for them. I cannot understand why because at the same time they have no trouble at all pronouncing rough, tough and enough.

A favourite head scratcher I am told for people in ESL classes is:

Baked (as in baked bread or baked a cake)

Naked (as in a naked person or tree)

[Aqua Letifer]

@LuFins-Dad said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@LuFins-Dad said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

I wonder how those here, who had to learn English, like @Klaus and @Doctor-Phibes feel about this.

My 5 year old is learning how to read. She's doing quite good well.

Anyway... I am reminded very often now about how inconsistent the language is. Row row row your boat? Yes it has "ow" in it, but it sounds like "roe", not "r-ow". Oh how to spell 4, it's four, but just ignore the u. It's like for.... which rhymes with door, but that has two o's in it. Know (which is the same as No) what I mean?

Same here, she's reading her first stories. I try to get her to sound things out but as you illustrate, that's probably a very stupid way to go.

Not really. Phonics is still the most effective method to teach reading https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/11/phonics-schools-students-read-learn/

I really don't see how. Rough dough plough and all that. I don't see how that makes any sense to a kid.

But, that's what we do because it's (1) different from the school, so, hey, broader strategies and (2) shit it's how I was taught, so it's at least something I know.

Simple. You’re focusing on the exceptions,

No, I'm focusing on the language I studied. And it's not simple at all.

House, Spouse, Doubt, Stout, About and Shout don't sound like Soup, You, Coupe or Route.

Brief, Siege, Field and Niece don't sound like Science, Ancient, Efficient or Patient.

Cat, Ball, Father and War.
Bread, Steak and Heart.
Son, Women and Womb.

English is one of the most if not the very most inconsistent language on the planet when it comes to pronunciation inconsistency.

[Klaus]

Every language has exceptions to its rules, and things you just have to know, which you can't derive from any rules.

English is a rather simple language to learn, compared to most other (Western) languages.

[Doctor Phibes]

If English was that hard, the Brits would all speak French or Welsh or something.

[LuFins Dad]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@LuFins-Dad said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@LuFins-Dad said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

@89th said in Learning English is hard:

I wonder how those here, who had to learn English, like @Klaus and @Doctor-Phibes feel about this.

My 5 year old is learning how to read. She's doing quite good well.

Anyway... I am reminded very often now about how inconsistent the language is. Row row row your boat? Yes it has "ow" in it, but it sounds like "roe", not "r-ow". Oh how to spell 4, it's four, but just ignore the u. It's like for.... which rhymes with door, but that has two o's in it. Know (which is the same as No) what I mean?

Same here, she's reading her first stories. I try to get her to sound things out but as you illustrate, that's probably a very stupid way to go.

Not really. Phonics is still the most effective method to teach reading https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2023/03/11/phonics-schools-students-read-learn/

I really don't see how. Rough dough plough and all that. I don't see how that makes any sense to a kid.

But, that's what we do because it's (1) different from the school, so, hey, broader strategies and (2) shit it's how I was taught, so it's at least something I know.

Simple. You’re focusing on the exceptions,

No, I'm focusing on the language I studied. And it's not simple at all.

House, Spouse, Doubt, Stout, About and Shout don't sound like Soup, You, Coupe or Route.

Brief, Siege, Field and Niece don't sound like Science, Ancient, Efficient or Patient.

Cat, Ball, Father and War.
Bread, Steak and Heart.
Son, Women and Womb.

English is one of the most if not the very most inconsistent language on the planet when it comes to pronunciation inconsistency.

Well, we could always adopt pitch accents to the language… I’m sure that will clear things right up…

[Doctor Phibes]

Around here there's a town named Warwick. The way they pronounce it sets my teeth on edge every time I hear it. They actually say both 'w''s. There's no way they did that when they first named it.

[George K]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Learning English is hard:

Around here there's a town named Warwick. The way they pronounce it sets my teeth on edge every time I hear it. They actually say both 'w''s. There's no way they did that when they first named it.

You guys sure do throw in a lot of unnecessary letters. I suppose it adds a certain colour to the language.

I mean, Worcestershire. Gloucester...

Now, pronounce ghoti.

[Doctor Phibes]

@George-K said in Learning English is hard:

@Doctor-Phibes said in Learning English is hard:

Around here there's a town named Warwick. The way they pronounce it sets my teeth on edge every time I hear it. They actually say both 'w''s. There's no way they did that when they first named it.

You guys sure do throw in a lot of unnecessary letters. I suppose it adds a certain colour to the language.

I mean, Worcestershire. Gloucester...

I think it's more likely that we took out or replaced some of the letters, but not all. Worcestershire was derived from the middle-English Wyrcestreschire.

My favourite town name is Cholmondeley in Cheshire, normally pronounced 'Chumley', but there's others - Leominster, near where my wife's father came from is pronounced 'Lemster' by the locals. I still get it wrong.

[Copper]

@George-K said in Learning English is hard:

Now, pronounce ghoti.

The Riddler used that in a comic book I remember from somewhere around the mid-60s. Batman figured it out right away.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Klaus said in Learning English is hard:

Every language has exceptions to its rules, and things you just have to know, which you can't derive from any rules.

I'm not saying that English is unique because it has phonetic exceptions and other languages don't. I'm saying that even compared to other languages, English has more phonetic exceptions than many others.

In part this is because other languages haven't been broken and rebuilt as many times as English has.

English is a rather simple language to learn, compared to most other (Western) languages.

Says the guy who first knew German before he learned English. It's not a coincidence you think that.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

In part this is because other languages haven't been broken and rebuilt as many times as English has.

I think you might be on to something. At least, I've noticed a lot of you chaps speak broken English.

[Aqua Letifer]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Learning English is hard:

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

In part this is because other languages haven't been broken and rebuilt as many times as English has.

I think you might be on to something. At least, I've noticed a lot of you chaps speak broken English.

Ours is older, though.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Aqua-Letifer said in Learning English is hard:

Ours is older, though.

Like your leaders.

And no, that's not necessarily true where I come from. Plenty of people aren't speaking received pronunciation etc. up in't North.