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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Debt Ceiling 2023

Debt Ceiling 2023

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  • JollyJ Jolly

    @jon-nyc said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

    Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

    Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

    Again, a variation of the Penny Plan. Let everybody share in the pain equally. Let Congress then make some hard choices on the allocation of funds.

    jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by
    #31

    @Jolly said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

    @jon-nyc said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

    Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

    Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

    Again, a variation of the Penny Plan. Let everybody share in the pain equally. Let Congress then make some hard choices on the allocation of funds.

    The penny has exactly the problem i described. No specifics just a top line number.

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

      Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

      Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

      LuFins DadL Offline
      LuFins DadL Offline
      LuFins Dad
      wrote on last edited by
      #32

      @jon-nyc said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

      Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

      Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

      Do you consider moving the retirement age up by 1 year effective 2043 to be a “cut”?

      SSA Administrative costs are $6.5 Billion per year. To you doubt that they could cut administrative expenses by $500 Million with no drop in performance and services? I have no doubt they could. I also have no doubt that service would be affected. They are addicted to the public teat…

      The Brad

      1 Reply Last reply
      • LuFins DadL Offline
        LuFins DadL Offline
        LuFins Dad
        wrote on last edited by LuFins Dad
        #33

        Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns). And their administrative overhead outside of payroll is much lower than the private market. I highly doubt Merril Lynch is getting GSA pricing for office furniture, computers, and such…

        There was some talk a few decades ago about privatization of SSA, but it was shot down. Fine. Just privatize the administration of the program…

        The Brad

        AxtremusA 1 Reply Last reply
        • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

          Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns). And their administrative overhead outside of payroll is much lower than the private market. I highly doubt Merril Lynch is getting GSA pricing for office furniture, computers, and such…

          There was some talk a few decades ago about privatization of SSA, but it was shot down. Fine. Just privatize the administration of the program…

          AxtremusA Offline
          AxtremusA Offline
          Axtremus
          wrote on last edited by
          #34

          @LuFins-Dad said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

          Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns).

          This CNBC article says .45% "all-in" expense for private 401(k) accounts on average.

          As for the SSA, the .60% is the total including the administration of the disability insurance program. Excluding the disability insurance program, the "old age and survivorship insurance" program's administrative cost is only .40%.

          LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
          • AxtremusA Axtremus

            @LuFins-Dad said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

            Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns).

            This CNBC article says .45% "all-in" expense for private 401(k) accounts on average.

            As for the SSA, the .60% is the total including the administration of the disability insurance program. Excluding the disability insurance program, the "old age and survivorship insurance" program's administrative cost is only .40%.

            LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins DadL Offline
            LuFins Dad
            wrote on last edited by
            #35

            @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

            @LuFins-Dad said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

            Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns).

            This CNBC article says .45% "all-in" expense for private 401(k) accounts on average.

            As for the SSA, the .60% is the total including the administration of the disability insurance program. Excluding the disability insurance program, the "old age and survivorship insurance" program's administrative cost is only .40%.

            1. .45% for a 401K on average AFTER you start adding in ETF fees and such. The basic administrative fees are .37% according to your article. When we shopped retirement plans a few years ago, .30% was the magic number.

            2. 401Ks represent what? 30% of retirement plans? IRA’s run a little lower, I believe…

            3. Either way, none comes close to the sheer magnitude and volume of the SSA. That volume drives administrating costs down per dollar spent.

            The Brad

            1 Reply Last reply
            • AxtremusA Offline
              AxtremusA Offline
              Axtremus
              wrote on last edited by
              #36

              https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-ratings-scope-ratings-idUSKBN2WX00H

              Scope Ratings on Friday placed the United States of America’s AA long-term issuer and senior unsecured debt ratings in local and foreign currency under review for a possible downgrade due to longer run risks associated with the misuse of the debt ceiling instrument.
              ...

              1 Reply Last reply
              • George KG Offline
                George KG Offline
                George K
                wrote on last edited by
                #37

                IMG_1683.jpeg

                https://www.wsj.com/articles/spending-restraint-isnt-wacko-just-ask-sen-biden-debt-ceiling-budget-gop-reform-taxes-6cf038ec

                "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • AxtremusA Offline
                  AxtremusA Offline
                  Axtremus
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #38

                  The 14th Amendment option:

                  https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/biden-opens-door-debt-ceiling-solution-gop-wont-rcna83327

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nycJ Offline
                    jon-nyc
                    wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                    #39

                    @Axtremus

                    I don't think that passes constitutional muster. Borrowing money is reserved for congress, and if the executive tries to do that unilaterally that has constitutional problems.

                    Of course congress has passed all the laws that are requiring the current level of spending, so the executive unilaterally halting spending to prevent breaking the ceiling would have the same constitutional problem.

                    I suspect the only truly constitutional methods for the executive branch to unilaterally navigate a debt ceiling crisis would be either minting the trillion dollar coins or issue premium bonds (bonds with above-market interest rates that will sell well above face value, since face value is what counts in the debt ceiling limit).

                    Only non-witches get due process.

                    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • AxtremusA Offline
                      AxtremusA Offline
                      Axtremus
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #40

                      https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/14/supreme-court-debt-limit-14th-amendment-00096784

                      More discussion on the 14th Amendment. Some interesting stuff like whether the Supreme Court would want or touch it at all, whether anyone will buy bonds issued by the Executive Branch (but not authorized by the Legislative Branch), whether anyone will have standing to sue if such bonds are issued, especially if such bonds are sold only to the Federal Reserve.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • AxtremusA Offline
                        AxtremusA Offline
                        Axtremus
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #41

                        https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-give-prime-time-address-debt-ceiling-deal/story?id=99787806

                        Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                        George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                        • MikM Offline
                          MikM Offline
                          Mik
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #42

                          Very presidential thing to do.

                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • AxtremusA Axtremus

                            https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-give-prime-time-address-debt-ceiling-deal/story?id=99787806

                            Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                            George KG Offline
                            George KG Offline
                            George K
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #43

                            @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                            Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                            One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                            I wonder if he'll veto that.

                            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                            JonJ 1 Reply Last reply
                            • CopperC Offline
                              CopperC Offline
                              Copper
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #44

                              I bet he wants more of your money.

                              And he wants more debt.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • MikM Offline
                                MikM Offline
                                Mik
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #45

                                Yep. He wants more money. He talks about taxing the wealthy but doesn't seem to understand the difference between net worth and income. That was a most partisan non-partisan speech.

                                Still, it was pretty good, and it was presidential.

                                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • George KG George K

                                  @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                  Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                                  One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                                  I wonder if he'll veto that.

                                  JonJ Offline
                                  JonJ Offline
                                  Jon
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #46

                                  @George-K said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                  @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                  Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                                  One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                                  I wonder if he'll veto that.

                                  Nah, he’ll sign as is. He and McCarthy made the deal after all.

                                  George KG 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • MikM Offline
                                    MikM Offline
                                    Mik
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #47

                                    Agreed, Jon. Despite his slightly confusing speech, the bipartisanship is encouraging.

                                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • JonJ Jon

                                      @George-K said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                      @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                      Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                                      One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                                      I wonder if he'll veto that.

                                      Nah, he’ll sign as is. He and McCarthy made the deal after all.

                                      George KG Offline
                                      George KG Offline
                                      George K
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #48

                                      @Jon said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                      Nah, he’ll sign as is. He and McCarthy made the deal after all.

                                      Turley's article doesn't substantiate his comment about what KJP said.

                                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • George KG Offline
                                        George KG Offline
                                        George K
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #49

                                        https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/26/house-passes-bill-blocking-student-debt-forgiveness.html

                                        The Senate passed a bill on Thursday aimed at blocking President Joe Biden’s student debt forgiveness plan and ending the pause on federal student loan payments and interest.

                                        The Republican-sponsored bill passed by a vote of 52-46 with three Democrats joining Republicans in support of the resolution. The White House vowed to veto the bill before it went before the House.

                                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • JonJ Offline
                                          JonJ Offline
                                          Jon
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #50

                                          This is better in the end, ending the program would moot the SCOTUS case. I’d rather SCOTUS end it so no president tries again some day.

                                          1 Reply Last reply
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