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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Debt Ceiling 2023

Debt Ceiling 2023

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  • J Offline
    J Offline
    Jolly
    wrote on 6 Feb 2023, 16:45 last edited by
    #30

    Shucks, wonder if it would help to take all the unspent COVID money and pay debt with it?

    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

    1 Reply Last reply
    • J Jolly
      6 Feb 2023, 16:45

      @jon-nyc said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

      Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

      Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

      Again, a variation of the Penny Plan. Let everybody share in the pain equally. Let Congress then make some hard choices on the allocation of funds.

      J Online
      J Online
      jon-nyc
      wrote on 6 Feb 2023, 21:54 last edited by
      #31

      @Jolly said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

      @jon-nyc said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

      Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

      Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

      Again, a variation of the Penny Plan. Let everybody share in the pain equally. Let Congress then make some hard choices on the allocation of funds.

      The penny has exactly the problem i described. No specifics just a top line number.

      They’ll end up, after a lot of drama, with the same formula they use every time they have a trifecta: take away health care and food assistance from low income families and use the money to fund tax cuts for their donors.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • J jon-nyc
        6 Feb 2023, 15:44

        Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

        Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

        L Offline
        L Offline
        LuFins Dad
        wrote on 6 Feb 2023, 22:28 last edited by
        #32

        @jon-nyc said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

        Of course “cutting spending” in the abstract is quite popular. It sounds like someone else’s sacrifice.

        Once you’re specific you find that cuts are generally either unpopular (cut SSA or Medicare) or budgetarily immaterial (zero out “foreign aid”).

        Do you consider moving the retirement age up by 1 year effective 2043 to be a “cut”?

        SSA Administrative costs are $6.5 Billion per year. To you doubt that they could cut administrative expenses by $500 Million with no drop in performance and services? I have no doubt they could. I also have no doubt that service would be affected. They are addicted to the public teat…

        The Brad

        1 Reply Last reply
        • L Offline
          L Offline
          LuFins Dad
          wrote on 6 Feb 2023, 22:34 last edited by LuFins Dad 2 Jun 2023, 22:36
          #33

          Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns). And their administrative overhead outside of payroll is much lower than the private market. I highly doubt Merril Lynch is getting GSA pricing for office furniture, computers, and such…

          There was some talk a few decades ago about privatization of SSA, but it was shot down. Fine. Just privatize the administration of the program…

          The Brad

          A 1 Reply Last reply 7 Feb 2023, 00:50
          • L LuFins Dad
            6 Feb 2023, 22:34

            Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns). And their administrative overhead outside of payroll is much lower than the private market. I highly doubt Merril Lynch is getting GSA pricing for office furniture, computers, and such…

            There was some talk a few decades ago about privatization of SSA, but it was shot down. Fine. Just privatize the administration of the program…

            A Away
            A Away
            Axtremus
            wrote on 7 Feb 2023, 00:50 last edited by
            #34

            @LuFins-Dad said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

            Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns).

            This CNBC article says .45% "all-in" expense for private 401(k) accounts on average.

            As for the SSA, the .60% is the total including the administration of the disability insurance program. Excluding the disability insurance program, the "old age and survivorship insurance" program's administrative cost is only .40%.

            L 1 Reply Last reply 7 Feb 2023, 02:21
            • A Axtremus
              7 Feb 2023, 00:50

              @LuFins-Dad said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

              Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns).

              This CNBC article says .45% "all-in" expense for private 401(k) accounts on average.

              As for the SSA, the .60% is the total including the administration of the disability insurance program. Excluding the disability insurance program, the "old age and survivorship insurance" program's administrative cost is only .40%.

              L Offline
              L Offline
              LuFins Dad
              wrote on 7 Feb 2023, 02:21 last edited by
              #35

              @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

              @LuFins-Dad said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

              Most private retirement accounts have an administrative cost of .30%. SSA is at .60% and at a MUCH higher volume with a much easier mission (2.5% returns).

              This CNBC article says .45% "all-in" expense for private 401(k) accounts on average.

              As for the SSA, the .60% is the total including the administration of the disability insurance program. Excluding the disability insurance program, the "old age and survivorship insurance" program's administrative cost is only .40%.

              1. .45% for a 401K on average AFTER you start adding in ETF fees and such. The basic administrative fees are .37% according to your article. When we shopped retirement plans a few years ago, .30% was the magic number.

              2. 401Ks represent what? 30% of retirement plans? IRA’s run a little lower, I believe…

              3. Either way, none comes close to the sheer magnitude and volume of the SSA. That volume drives administrating costs down per dollar spent.

              The Brad

              1 Reply Last reply
              • 3 months later
              • A Away
                A Away
                Axtremus
                wrote on 6 May 2023, 17:44 last edited by
                #36

                https://www.reuters.com/article/usa-ratings-scope-ratings-idUSKBN2WX00H

                Scope Ratings on Friday placed the United States of America’s AA long-term issuer and senior unsecured debt ratings in local and foreign currency under review for a possible downgrade due to longer run risks associated with the misuse of the debt ceiling instrument.
                ...

                1 Reply Last reply
                • G Offline
                  G Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on 6 May 2023, 20:02 last edited by
                  #37

                  IMG_1683.jpeg

                  https://www.wsj.com/articles/spending-restraint-isnt-wacko-just-ask-sen-biden-debt-ceiling-budget-gop-reform-taxes-6cf038ec

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • A Away
                    A Away
                    Axtremus
                    wrote on 8 May 2023, 17:51 last edited by
                    #38

                    The 14th Amendment option:

                    https://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow-show/maddowblog/biden-opens-door-debt-ceiling-solution-gop-wont-rcna83327

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • J Online
                      J Online
                      jon-nyc
                      wrote on 8 May 2023, 18:32 last edited by jon-nyc 5 Aug 2023, 18:33
                      #39

                      @Axtremus

                      I don't think that passes constitutional muster. Borrowing money is reserved for congress, and if the executive tries to do that unilaterally that has constitutional problems.

                      Of course congress has passed all the laws that are requiring the current level of spending, so the executive unilaterally halting spending to prevent breaking the ceiling would have the same constitutional problem.

                      I suspect the only truly constitutional methods for the executive branch to unilaterally navigate a debt ceiling crisis would be either minting the trillion dollar coins or issue premium bonds (bonds with above-market interest rates that will sell well above face value, since face value is what counts in the debt ceiling limit).

                      They’ll end up, after a lot of drama, with the same formula they use every time they have a trifecta: take away health care and food assistance from low income families and use the money to fund tax cuts for their donors.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • A Away
                        A Away
                        Axtremus
                        wrote on 15 May 2023, 02:49 last edited by
                        #40

                        https://www.politico.com/news/2023/05/14/supreme-court-debt-limit-14th-amendment-00096784

                        More discussion on the 14th Amendment. Some interesting stuff like whether the Supreme Court would want or touch it at all, whether anyone will buy bonds issued by the Executive Branch (but not authorized by the Legislative Branch), whether anyone will have standing to sue if such bonds are issued, especially if such bonds are sold only to the Federal Reserve.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • 19 days later
                        • A Away
                          A Away
                          Axtremus
                          wrote on 2 Jun 2023, 22:15 last edited by
                          #41

                          https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-give-prime-time-address-debt-ceiling-deal/story?id=99787806

                          Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                          G 1 Reply Last reply 2 Jun 2023, 22:24
                          • M Offline
                            M Offline
                            Mik
                            wrote on 2 Jun 2023, 22:21 last edited by
                            #42

                            Very presidential thing to do.

                            “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • A Axtremus
                              2 Jun 2023, 22:15

                              https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/biden-give-prime-time-address-debt-ceiling-deal/story?id=99787806

                              Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                              G Offline
                              G Offline
                              George K
                              wrote on 2 Jun 2023, 22:24 last edited by
                              #43

                              @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                              Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                              One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                              I wonder if he'll veto that.

                              "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                              The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                              J 1 Reply Last reply 2 Jun 2023, 23:33
                              • C Offline
                                C Offline
                                Copper
                                wrote on 2 Jun 2023, 22:47 last edited by
                                #44

                                I bet he wants more of your money.

                                And he wants more debt.

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • M Offline
                                  M Offline
                                  Mik
                                  wrote on 2 Jun 2023, 23:16 last edited by
                                  #45

                                  Yep. He wants more money. He talks about taxing the wealthy but doesn't seem to understand the difference between net worth and income. That was a most partisan non-partisan speech.

                                  Still, it was pretty good, and it was presidential.

                                  “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • G George K
                                    2 Jun 2023, 22:24

                                    @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                    Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                                    One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                                    I wonder if he'll veto that.

                                    J Offline
                                    J Offline
                                    Jon
                                    wrote on 2 Jun 2023, 23:33 last edited by
                                    #46

                                    @George-K said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                    @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                    Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                                    One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                                    I wonder if he'll veto that.

                                    Nah, he’ll sign as is. He and McCarthy made the deal after all.

                                    G 1 Reply Last reply 3 Jun 2023, 00:23
                                    • M Offline
                                      M Offline
                                      Mik
                                      wrote on 2 Jun 2023, 23:36 last edited by
                                      #47

                                      Agreed, Jon. Despite his slightly confusing speech, the bipartisanship is encouraging.

                                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • J Jon
                                        2 Jun 2023, 23:33

                                        @George-K said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                        @Axtremus said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                        Biden to speak about the debt ceiling deal tonight at prime time (June 2, 2023, 7 PM Eastern).

                                        One of the provisions in the agreement is the cancellation of student debt forgiveness. Somewhere I read that that's a stand-alone bill.

                                        I wonder if he'll veto that.

                                        Nah, he’ll sign as is. He and McCarthy made the deal after all.

                                        G Offline
                                        G Offline
                                        George K
                                        wrote on 3 Jun 2023, 00:23 last edited by
                                        #48

                                        @Jon said in Debt Ceiling 2023:

                                        Nah, he’ll sign as is. He and McCarthy made the deal after all.

                                        Turley's article doesn't substantiate his comment about what KJP said.

                                        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • G Offline
                                          G Offline
                                          George K
                                          wrote on 3 Jun 2023, 00:28 last edited by
                                          #49

                                          https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/26/house-passes-bill-blocking-student-debt-forgiveness.html

                                          The Senate passed a bill on Thursday aimed at blocking President Joe Biden’s student debt forgiveness plan and ending the pause on federal student loan payments and interest.

                                          The Republican-sponsored bill passed by a vote of 52-46 with three Democrats joining Republicans in support of the resolution. The White House vowed to veto the bill before it went before the House.

                                          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                                          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

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