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The New Coffee Room

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  3. The Ukraine war thread

The Ukraine war thread

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  • George KG Offline
    George KG Offline
    George K
    wrote on last edited by
    #1410

    Putin Halts Nuke Pact With US, Vows to Push War in Ukraine

    President Vladimir Putin said Russia will suspend its observation of the New START treaty with the US, dealing a blow to the last accord limiting their nuclear arsenals, as he vowed to press on with his faltering invasion of Ukraine.
    Russia is fighting for its “historic lands” in Ukraine and “will fulfill the tasks set step-by-step, carefully and consistently,” Putin told the Russian parliament and top officials in Moscow on Tuesday. Russia won’t be the first to resume testing of nuclear weapons as a result of its suspension of New START, though it will do so in response to any US test, he said.
    Russia’s suspension of the treaty is “deeply unfortunate and irresponsible,” US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said in Athens. Putin’s decision “makes the world more dangerous” and means the entire infrastructure of arms control has been dismantled, North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters in Brussels, urging Russia to reconsider.
    US President Joe Biden extended the nuclear treaty by five years to 2026 as one of his first acts upon taking office in 2021 shortly before it was due to expire, after Putin had pressed his predecessor Donald Trump without success to agree to a deal.

    Despite the anticipation, the speech lasting nearly two hours covered mainly Putin’s usual efforts to shift the blame for the conflict to the US and its allies, where he claimed godlessness and pedophilia have become “the norm.” Much of the address also focused on domestic issues, with new benefits offered for veterans and their families, as well as defense workers.
    Russia’s suspension of New START means the US could lose access to inspections and monitoring data about the number of deployed Russian nuclear warheads, as well as the land- and sea-based vehicles used to launch them. About 200 inspectors drawn from the Department of Defense, intelligence community and State Department are assigned to carry out verification under the treaty, according to Steven Pifer, the former US ambassador to Ukraine who conducted arms-control negotiations with Russia.
    “What the Pentagon values most about the treaty isn’t the numbers, it’s the transparency,” said Pifer, who’s now a fellow at the Brookings Institution.

    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

    RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
    • George KG George K

      Putin Halts Nuke Pact With US, Vows to Push War in Ukraine

      President Vladimir Putin said Russia will suspend its observation of the New START treaty with the US, dealing a blow to the last accord limiting their nuclear arsenals, as he vowed to press on with his faltering invasion of Ukraine.
      Russia is fighting for its “historic lands” in Ukraine and “will fulfill the tasks set step-by-step, carefully and consistently,” Putin told the Russian parliament and top officials in Moscow on Tuesday. Russia won’t be the first to resume testing of nuclear weapons as a result of its suspension of New START, though it will do so in response to any US test, he said.
      Russia’s suspension of the treaty is “deeply unfortunate and irresponsible,” US Secretary of State Antony Blinken said in Athens. Putin’s decision “makes the world more dangerous” and means the entire infrastructure of arms control has been dismantled, North Atlantic Treaty Organization Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg told reporters in Brussels, urging Russia to reconsider.
      US President Joe Biden extended the nuclear treaty by five years to 2026 as one of his first acts upon taking office in 2021 shortly before it was due to expire, after Putin had pressed his predecessor Donald Trump without success to agree to a deal.

      Despite the anticipation, the speech lasting nearly two hours covered mainly Putin’s usual efforts to shift the blame for the conflict to the US and its allies, where he claimed godlessness and pedophilia have become “the norm.” Much of the address also focused on domestic issues, with new benefits offered for veterans and their families, as well as defense workers.
      Russia’s suspension of New START means the US could lose access to inspections and monitoring data about the number of deployed Russian nuclear warheads, as well as the land- and sea-based vehicles used to launch them. About 200 inspectors drawn from the Department of Defense, intelligence community and State Department are assigned to carry out verification under the treaty, according to Steven Pifer, the former US ambassador to Ukraine who conducted arms-control negotiations with Russia.
      “What the Pentagon values most about the treaty isn’t the numbers, it’s the transparency,” said Pifer, who’s now a fellow at the Brookings Institution.

      RenaudaR Offline
      RenaudaR Offline
      Renauda
      wrote on last edited by Renauda
      #1411

      @George-K

      The treaty itself has already been moribund for some time. Well before last year’s offensive against Ukraine, Russia began obstructing or even refusing verification inspection under the treaty.

      Putin is just resorting to his usual bluster and extortion tactics. The fact that his speech focused on domestic issues and avoided altogether an assessment, even falsified, of what is actually happening on the battlefield, indicates he is at least aware that his prestige and authority are more vulnerable now than ever. It boils down to damage control of his desired legacy.

      Elbows up!

      George KG 1 Reply Last reply
      • RenaudaR Renauda

        @George-K

        The treaty itself has already been moribund for some time. Well before last year’s offensive against Ukraine, Russia began obstructing or even refusing verification inspection under the treaty.

        Putin is just resorting to his usual bluster and extortion tactics. The fact that his speech focused on domestic issues and avoided altogether an assessment, even falsified, of what is actually happening on the battlefield, indicates he is at least aware that his prestige and authority are more vulnerable now than ever. It boils down to damage control of his desired legacy.

        George KG Offline
        George KG Offline
        George K
        wrote on last edited by
        #1412

        @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

        his speech focused on domestic issues and avoided altogether an assessment, even falsified, of what is actually happening

        I read a similar assessment. Other than the usual "always part of Russia," "Nazis," etc bullshit, there was really nothing he said of any substance.

        "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

        The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

        RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
        • George KG George K

          @Renauda said in The Ukraine war thread:

          his speech focused on domestic issues and avoided altogether an assessment, even falsified, of what is actually happening

          I read a similar assessment. Other than the usual "always part of Russia," "Nazis," etc bullshit, there was really nothing he said of any substance.

          RenaudaR Offline
          RenaudaR Offline
          Renauda
          wrote on last edited by Renauda
          #1413

          @George-K

          As my late father would have described, it was two hours of very thin gruel.

          Elbows up!

          1 Reply Last reply
          • RenaudaR Offline
            RenaudaR Offline
            Renauda
            wrote on last edited by
            #1414

            “There is a large group in power who believe that victory is needed and that is all. At the same time, they can't explain what the victory is, except for reaching Kyiv."

            But most government officials and top business executives, according to the government source, are interested in a peace agreement as soon as possible.

            "The general mood overall is negative, everyone's tired," he said.

            Russians react to Putin’s 2 hour harangue:

            https://www.themoscowtimes.com/2023/02/21/everyones-tired-acceptance-and-exasperation-in-russian-elite-as-invasion-anniversary-looms-a80289

            Elbows up!

            1 Reply Last reply
            • JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #1415

              Wonder how much you can learn in five weeks?

              https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/1st-class-ukraine-fighters-finishes-advanced-us-training-97292982?amp_js_v=0.1&usqp=mq331AQKKAFQArABIIACAw==

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              1 Reply Last reply
              • MikM Offline
                MikM Offline
                Mik
                wrote on last edited by
                #1416

                35 days? Quite a lot, I should think.

                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                1 Reply Last reply
                • George KG Offline
                  George KG Offline
                  George K
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #1417

                  US basic training is 10 weeks. I imagine at least half of that is learning "how to soldier."

                  Yeah, 5 weeks might be OK.

                  Screenshot 2023-02-21 at 3.56.08 PM.png

                  "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                  The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • RenaudaR Offline
                    RenaudaR Offline
                    Renauda
                    wrote on last edited by Renauda
                    #1418

                    Whatever it is, 35 days more training, care and attention than any conscripted Russian grunt after a year of national service gets.

                    Elbows up!

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • MikM Offline
                      MikM Offline
                      Mik
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #1419

                      It's specific training on the weaponry they will be using and tactics for them. Like Renauda said, far greater than Russian grunts.

                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                      • MikM Mik

                        It's specific training on the weaponry they will be using and tactics for them. Like Renauda said, far greater than Russian grunts.

                        RenaudaR Offline
                        RenaudaR Offline
                        Renauda
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #1420

                        @Mik

                        It’s safe assume that these Ukrainian troops have already been “blooded” and have thus learned a practical degree of technical and combat savvy.

                        Elbows up!

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • MikM Offline
                          MikM Offline
                          Mik
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #1421

                          I should think so.

                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • George KG Offline
                            George KG Offline
                            George K
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #1422

                            https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/2/21/qa-dr-pavel-felgenhauer-russia-ukraine-war

                            Some of the comments:
                            =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

                            Al Jazeera spoke to Pavel Felgenhauer, a Russian defence analyst who served as a senior research officer in the Soviet Academy of Sciences.

                            Al Jazeera: Why do you think an escalation is imminent?

                            Pavel Felgenhauer: We cannot totally predict everything. But I believe that an escalation right now is imminent. An escalation in the fighting; everyone is talking about a Russian offensive. Western military commanders in Brussels are also talking about how the Ukrainians should go on the offensive.

                            Al Jazeera: Isn’t Russia faring better than expected? Doesn’t the economy seem to be stable even after strict sanctions?

                            Felgenhauer: Russia, of course right now, has very serious financial problems with a deficit that’s being financed by printing money. It has problems on the battlefield at the same time.

                            I don’t see how this can continue in the present pattern for a long time. It’s like football, you never know what’s going to happen actually on the battlefield. There’s a well-known saying that “Russia is never a strong as your fear”, as we see during this year, but “Russia is also never as weak as you hope”. So you can’t just write off Russia. The intensity of the fighting is too high for it to be maintained for long.

                            Al Jazeera: If it is such a drag, why did Russian President Vladimir Putin go to war?

                            Felgenhauer: There was a military reason — to prevent Western missiles appearing in Ukraine for a direct strike on Moscow.

                            There was a geopolitical reason — to reunite the Russian people, assuming that Ukrainians are Russian people, and to defy the West and actually undermine Western unity.

                            Also, to cause friction within the Western alliance and also establish a new multipolar world.

                            Al Jazeera: So what went wrong for Russia?

                            Felgenhauer: The Russian military turned out to be not as strong as not only the West believes, but its own leadership believes. It’s not ready for modern warfare.

                            The Ukrainians are much better, they were better prepared organisationally and in terms of command and control, in terms of command personnel, and then they got better weapons than the Russians.

                            The Russian military has been isolated for more than 100 years from world tendencies in war-making. They are still living in the world of tanks, believing that if you mass enough, victory falls into your lap.

                            Al Jazeera: Do you believe that this conflict will come to its end soon?

                            Felgenhauer: I believe it will end this year.

                            They tried talks in March, then meetings in Istanbul, which hinted that they’re moving towards some kind of an agreement. But Russia and Ukraine were miles apart.

                            Ukraine was more or less ready to agree in February 2022. Now Ukrainians say they want more and Russia also says it wants more. So again, two sides are miles apart.

                            "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                            The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • MikM Offline
                              MikM Offline
                              Mik
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #1423

                              Problematic polarization between Russia and Ukraine notwithstanding, it’s a hopeful assessment.

                              “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                              RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                              • MikM Mik

                                Problematic polarization between Russia and Ukraine notwithstanding, it’s a hopeful assessment.

                                RenaudaR Offline
                                RenaudaR Offline
                                Renauda
                                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                #1424

                                @Mik

                                Check out my link with Stephen Kotkin’s analysis in the Bolton thread. A decidedly more sober assessment.

                                Elbows up!

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • MikM Offline
                                  MikM Offline
                                  Mik
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #1425

                                  My concern is what does Putin do if and when his conventional forces are exhausted and no victory in sight.

                                  “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                  RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • MikM Mik

                                    My concern is what does Putin do if and when his conventional forces are exhausted and no victory in sight.

                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    RenaudaR Offline
                                    Renauda
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #1426

                                    @Mik

                                    That might prove to be the opportunity for a position of strength diplomatic solution imposing an armistice on both sides. That is more or less Kotkin’s solution in the link.

                                    Elbows up!

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • MikM Offline
                                      MikM Offline
                                      Mik
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #1427

                                      Only had time to listen to half of it. He was talking about that when I had to leave. He made great points about it being a war of attrition and that we are not ramping up production. A mistake in my book.

                                      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                      RenaudaR 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • MikM Mik

                                        Only had time to listen to half of it. He was talking about that when I had to leave. He made great points about it being a war of attrition and that we are not ramping up production. A mistake in my book.

                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        RenaudaR Offline
                                        Renauda
                                        wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                        #1428

                                        @Mik

                                        I agree, Kotkin makes a lot of sense regarding it being a war of attrition and just what that means to all parties. You’ll see how he ties everything together later on when he adds China into the mix of his analysis.

                                        Elbows up!

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • MikM Offline
                                          MikM Offline
                                          Mik
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #1429

                                          Massively ramping up production would be a much bigger message than a trip to Kiev. I’m not dissing the trip, I just think that action would have spoken louder.

                                          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

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