Roe & Casey overturned.
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Countering the "Not in the Constitution" argument.
James Madison, one of the principal architects of the new Constitution, closely followed this debate. On June 8, 1789, he gave a speech to Congress proposing the group of amendments that would ultimately become the Bill of Rights. While doing so, he directly addressed the Anti-Federalist/Federalist debate. "It has been observed also against a bill of rights, that, by enumerating particular exceptions to the grant of power, it would disparage those rights which were not placed in that enumeration," he said, "and it might follow by implication, that those rights which were not singled out, were intended to be assigned into the hands of the general government, and were consequently insecure." Madison acknowledged that "this is one of the most plausible arguments I have ever heard urged against the admission of a bill of rights into this system; But, I conceive, that may be guarded against. I have attempted it."
Madison's attempt became enshrined in the Constitution as the Ninth Amendment. Here is what it says: "The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people." In short, unenumerated rights get the same respect as enumerated ones.
Today, most legal conservatives purport to be constitutional originalists. What that means for the legal debate over abortion is that any purported originalist must face the question of whether abortion rights may be considered to be among the unenumerated rights "retained by the people" that Madison's Ninth Amendment was specifically written and ratified to protect. Alito's opinion in Dobbs v. Jackson Women's Health Organization entirely fails to grapple with this necessary question.
wrote on 25 Jun 2022, 17:57 last edited by@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Countering the "Not in the Constitution" argument.
What that means for the legal debate over abortion is that any purported originalist must face the question of whether abortion rights may be considered to be among the unenumerated rights "retained by the people" that Madison's Ninth Amendment was specifically written and ratified to protect.
Simple. It was enumerated, as murder. That is the starting point.
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wrote on 25 Jun 2022, 18:26 last edited by
I suspect Madison was fairly familiar with the Declaration of Independence. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, would be very familiar concepts to him.
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I suspect Madison was fairly familiar with the Declaration of Independence. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, would be very familiar concepts to him.
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wrote on 25 Jun 2022, 22:16 last edited by George K
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wrote on 25 Jun 2022, 23:56 last edited by
@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Let that sink in. SecDef: We will not obey the law.
I'm not sure he can do that.
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@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Let that sink in. SecDef: We will not obey the law.
I'm not sure he can do that.
wrote on 25 Jun 2022, 23:59 last edited by@Jolly said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I'm not sure he can do that.
Garland will be all over that, right?
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@Jolly said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I'm not sure he can do that.
Garland will be all over that, right?
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 00:01 last edited by@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
@Jolly said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I'm not sure he can do that.
Garland will be all over that, right?
Shirley, you jest
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@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
@Jolly said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I'm not sure he can do that.
Garland will be all over that, right?
Shirley, you jest
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 00:03 last edited by@Jolly said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Shirley, you jest
Under who's jurisdiction is the DoD?
If a soldier commits a non-federal crime, like burglary, who prosecutes?
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wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 00:04 last edited by Horace
The leftist indoctrination into righteous destruction of any and every conservative political principle continues unabated. And next time a conservative leaning miscreant entity gets naughty, it’ll be right back to terrifying existential threats to our very democracy.
The magic of the human mind is that they don’t even recognize the double standard.
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wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 00:21 last edited by
@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Let that sink in. SecDef: We will not obey the law.
Insurrectiony!
Seriously, I imagine the military can continue to provide abortion services on their bases, no matter what that state’s laws may be. It’s Federal Property, kind of like how US Embassies in other countries are on US soil, technically.
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wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 00:31 last edited by
Proudly killing babies since Mỹ Lai
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@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Let that sink in. SecDef: We will not obey the law.
Insurrectiony!
Seriously, I imagine the military can continue to provide abortion services on their bases, no matter what that state’s laws may be. It’s Federal Property, kind of like how US Embassies in other countries are on US soil, technically.
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 00:31 last edited by George K@LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I imagine the military can continue to provide abortion services on their bases, no matter what that state’s laws may be. It’s Federal Property
That's right. Now, what if birthing person has an abortion on non-military property? Will the military turn xer over to local law enforcement?
(Did I do that correctly by the way?)
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@LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I imagine the military can continue to provide abortion services on their bases, no matter what that state’s laws may be. It’s Federal Property
That's right. Now, what if birthing person has an abortion on non-military property? Will the military turn xer over to local law enforcement?
(Did I do that correctly by the way?)
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 01:30 last edited by@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
@LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I imagine the military can continue to provide abortion services on their bases, no matter what that state’s laws may be. It’s Federal Property
That's right. Now, what if birthing person has an abortion on non-military property? Will the military turn xer over to local law enforcement?
(Did I do that correctly by the way?)
If they are having an abortion, aren’t they the definition of non-birthing person?
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@George-K said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
@LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
I imagine the military can continue to provide abortion services on their bases, no matter what that state’s laws may be. It’s Federal Property
That's right. Now, what if birthing person has an abortion on non-military property? Will the military turn xer over to local law enforcement?
(Did I do that correctly by the way?)
If they are having an abortion, aren’t they the definition of non-birthing person?
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 01:33 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
If they are having an abortion, aren’t they the definition of non-birthing person?
Don't make me post that "Scanners" exploding head gif...
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wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 02:51 last edited by
Mini vent here. I have a number of friends who have posted some variation of “this is taking away a woman’s control over her body!” complaint. It totally misses the mark…
Those that are pro-life (like me) fully support a woman’s right to control her body, of course…it’s only that we see the issue as a question of whether or not it should be legal to end a prenatal human life. To me it’s clearly more important to protect life than to protect an elective medical procedure. It’s about protecting unborn children, not about restricting a woman’s rights.
But the debate will never end because both sides see the issue differently. Can’t solve that. I agree @taiwan_girl this will eventually be reversed way down the road, but until then I think it’s very correct to leave this to each state to decide. It’s hard to think of a clearer example of a tough issue that is appropriate to legislate at the state level.
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wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 09:27 last edited by
Maybe I'm missing something, but the way I understand the verdict, most protesters - from both sides - miss the point.
This was not a verdict about whether abortion is good or bad or whether it should be legal or not. It was about whether a right to abortion can be deduced from the constitution, or whether abortion rights (or lack thereof) have to be dealt with by law. Essentially, it's about whether there is a "natural right" to abortion, or whether it's something that the people decide, using the democratic process.
I do understand the practical consequences of the verdict, but it seems to me that one can agree (or disagree) with the verdict as both a "pro choicer" and a "pro lifer".
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Maybe I'm missing something, but the way I understand the verdict, most protesters - from both sides - miss the point.
This was not a verdict about whether abortion is good or bad or whether it should be legal or not. It was about whether a right to abortion can be deduced from the constitution, or whether abortion rights (or lack thereof) have to be dealt with by law. Essentially, it's about whether there is a "natural right" to abortion, or whether it's something that the people decide, using the democratic process.
I do understand the practical consequences of the verdict, but it seems to me that one can agree (or disagree) with the verdict as both a "pro choicer" and a "pro lifer".
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 09:54 last edited by@Klaus said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Maybe I'm missing something, but the way I understand the verdict, most protesters - from both sides - miss the point.
This was not a verdict about whether abortion is good or bad or whether it should be legal or not. It was about whether a right to abortion can be deduced from the constitution, or whether abortion rights (or lack thereof) have to be dealt with by law. Essentially, it's about whether there is a "natural right" to abortion, or whether it's something that the people decide, using the democratic process.
I do understand the practical consequences of the verdict, but it seems to me that one can agree (or disagree) with the verdict as both a "pro choicer" and a "pro lifer".
Under no circumstance will constitutional logic interfere with culture war issues decided by the Supreme Court. If a case makes it to the Supreme Court, culture wars supersede the constitution. Just ask the justices. How else is one supposed to understand predictable differences in their votes? Different understandings of the constitution, or different present day opinions about how the law ought to be?
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Maybe I'm missing something, but the way I understand the verdict, most protesters - from both sides - miss the point.
This was not a verdict about whether abortion is good or bad or whether it should be legal or not. It was about whether a right to abortion can be deduced from the constitution, or whether abortion rights (or lack thereof) have to be dealt with by law. Essentially, it's about whether there is a "natural right" to abortion, or whether it's something that the people decide, using the democratic process.
I do understand the practical consequences of the verdict, but it seems to me that one can agree (or disagree) with the verdict as both a "pro choicer" and a "pro lifer".
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 11:43 last edited by@Klaus said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Essentially, it's about whether there is a "natural right" to abortion, or whether it's something that the people decide, using the democratic process.
Close. But not quite. Congress can enact a law allowing abortion in any fashion, to any time up to delivery. Presumably, such a law would not be unconstitutional, because, as has been said, the word "abortion" doesn't appear in the constitution. The court's job is to interpret the law and determine the constitutionality of that law, not to determine whether the law is "good" or "bad." That job belongs to the legislature, and by extension, the people who select it.
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wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 11:55 last edited by
Here’s his statement:
Nothing is more important to me or to this Department than the health and well-being of our Service members, the civilian workforce and DOD families. I am committed to taking care of our people and ensuring the readiness and resilience of our Force. The Department is examining this decision closely and evaluating our policies to ensure we continue to provide seamless access to reproductive health care as permitted by federal law.
Doesn’t seem that nefarious.
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Here’s his statement:
Nothing is more important to me or to this Department than the health and well-being of our Service members, the civilian workforce and DOD families. I am committed to taking care of our people and ensuring the readiness and resilience of our Force. The Department is examining this decision closely and evaluating our policies to ensure we continue to provide seamless access to reproductive health care as permitted by federal law.
Doesn’t seem that nefarious.
wrote on 26 Jun 2022, 12:50 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Roe & Casey overturned.:
Doesn’t seem that nefarious.
The military doesn't cover abortion except in cases of rape, incest or threat to life of
motherbirthing person. Otherwise they must leave the base.And, as has been stated there is no "federal law" about abortion - other than the Hyde amendment.