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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Texas shooting.

Texas shooting.

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  • MikM Mik

    @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

    @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

    The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

    I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

    Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

    Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

    Aqua LetiferA Offline
    Aqua LetiferA Offline
    Aqua Letifer
    wrote on last edited by
    #160

    @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

    @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

    @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

    The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

    I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

    Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

    Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

    What's your idea?

    Please love yourself.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Offline
      MikM Offline
      Mik
      wrote on last edited by Mik
      #161

      I already have said the first and easiest thing is to harden ingress to schools.

      “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

      Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
      • MikM Mik

        I already have said the first and easiest thing is to harden ingress to schools.

        Aqua LetiferA Offline
        Aqua LetiferA Offline
        Aqua Letifer
        wrote on last edited by
        #162

        @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

        I already have said the first and easiest thing is to harden ingress to schools.

        Hey, I'm down. I don't see how that would actually help against people who really want to commit some violence, but it'd be something to try.

        Please love yourself.

        1 Reply Last reply
        • MikM Offline
          MikM Offline
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #163

          It would have kept Ramos out.

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          Aqua LetiferA 89th8 2 Replies Last reply
          • MikM Offline
            MikM Offline
            Mik
            wrote on last edited by
            #164

            Another suggestion? Keep classroom windows 6’ above grade or narrow enough to prevent a wide field of fire. Now this would only apply to schools built in the future, but it would work well if ingress was taken away.

            “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

            1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Mik

              It would have kept Ramos out.

              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua LetiferA Offline
              Aqua Letifer
              wrote on last edited by
              #165

              @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

              It would have kept Ramos out.

              Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

              Please love yourself.

              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nycJ Online
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                #166

                Uvalde cops confront the trolly problem.

                F1347F3E-2B1C-4374-928F-4511BD862542.jpeg

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                1 Reply Last reply
                • HoraceH Online
                  HoraceH Online
                  Horace
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #167

                  The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                  Education is extremely important.

                  jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                  • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                    @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                    It would have kept Ramos out.

                    Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                    HoraceH Online
                    HoraceH Online
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #168

                    @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                    @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                    It would have kept Ramos out.

                    Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                    His planning for this attack didn't seem advanced enough to coordinate with bus schedules. And the death count would likely have been lower if he had done it that way.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                    • HoraceH Horace

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                      @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                      It would have kept Ramos out.

                      Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                      His planning for this attack didn't seem advanced enough to coordinate with bus schedules. And the death count would likely have been lower if he had done it that way.

                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua Letifer
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #169

                      @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                      @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                      @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                      It would have kept Ramos out.

                      Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                      His planning for this attack didn't seem advanced enough to coordinate with bus schedules.

                      It doesn't take much to decide to show up at 4:00.

                      And the death count would likely have been lower if he had done it that way.

                      I doubt it.

                      Please love yourself.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • MikM Offline
                        MikM Offline
                        Mik
                        wrote on last edited by Mik
                        #170

                        No approach is going to be foolproof. But locked doors would have helped or prevented this situation. Nothing you can suggest for gun control will be foolproof either and will be far more difficult.

                        It is said politics is the art of the possible.

                        “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • HoraceH Horace

                          The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                          jon-nycJ Online
                          jon-nycJ Online
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #171

                          @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                          The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                          Deserved, no?

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                          • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                            @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                            The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                            Deserved, no?

                            HoraceH Online
                            HoraceH Online
                            Horace
                            wrote on last edited by Horace
                            #172

                            @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                            @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                            The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                            Deserved, no?

                            Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job. It's easy to say each individual should go renegade and be dirty harry, but I think it's ignorant to think that would be the obvious decision in the moment. Unless you also think each individual who failed to make that obvious decision is a cowardly dirt bag. More likely that they're normal people, making normal decisions in an abnormal moment. But shitting on all of them will teach their counterparts throughout the country a lesson, so it's probably for the best.

                            Education is extremely important.

                            Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                            • HoraceH Horace

                              @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                              @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                              The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                              Deserved, no?

                              Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job. It's easy to say each individual should go renegade and be dirty harry, but I think it's ignorant to think that would be the obvious decision in the moment. Unless you also think each individual who failed to make that obvious decision is a cowardly dirt bag. More likely that they're normal people, making normal decisions in an abnormal moment. But shitting on all of them will teach their counterparts throughout the country a lesson, so it's probably for the best.

                              Aqua LetiferA Offline
                              Aqua LetiferA Offline
                              Aqua Letifer
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #173

                              @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                              @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                              @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                              The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                              Deserved, no?

                              Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job.

                              Ah, the Nuremberg defense.

                              Please love yourself.

                              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                              • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                                @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                Deserved, no?

                                Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job.

                                Ah, the Nuremberg defense.

                                HoraceH Online
                                HoraceH Online
                                Horace
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #174

                                @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                                @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                                @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                Deserved, no?

                                Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job.

                                Ah, the Nuremberg defense.

                                You just keep on doing something. It's impressive.

                                Education is extremely important.

                                Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                                • MikM Mik

                                  It would have kept Ramos out.

                                  89th8 Offline
                                  89th8 Offline
                                  89th
                                  wrote on last edited by 89th
                                  #175

                                  @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                  It would have kept Ramos out.

                                  11:27 a.m. — Video footage shows a teacher at Robb Elementary propping open an exterior door. Ramos reportedly entered through this door.

                                  11:28 a.m. — Ramos’ vehicle crashes near the school. A teacher ran back to a classroom to get a phone and came back to the door, allowing it to remain open. Two men, at a nearby funeral home, made their way to the crash scene where they saw Ramos exit the vehicle from the passenger side with a gun and backpack. The witnesses reportedly began running and Ramos tried shooting at them.

                                  11:30 a.m. — 911 receives a phone call that there was a man who crashed his vehicle and has a gun.

                                  11:31 a.m. — Ramos “reaches the last row of vehicles in the school parking lot,” McCraw said. The 18-year-old began shooting at the school, while police responded to the funeral home. McCraw adds that previous statements that officers confronted Ramos were inaccurate, and that an officer who heard the 911 call “drove immediately to the area he thought was the man with the gun, to the back of the school, which turned out to be a teacher.” McCraw said the officer drove by the suspect, who was “hunkered down behind a vehicle.”

                                  11:32 a.m. — Ramos fires multiple shots at the school from outside, then enters the building.

                                  11:33 a.m. — Ramos begins shooting in a classroom. McCraw says audio evidence from video footage shows Ramos shooting over 100 rounds.

                                  11:35 a.m. — Three officers enter the school through the same doors that Ramos reportedly entered. Later, four more officers joined. The initial three officers were shot at, and some were grazed by bullets. Ramos shut the door to the classroom.

                                  11:37 a.m. — Over 16 rounds are fired.

                                  11:51 a.m. — More police begin to arrive.

                                  12:03 p.m. — As many as 19 police officers were in the hallway outside the classroom. McCraw said they believed the active shooter situation had transitioned into a barricaded person call. A female caller dialed 911 from the classroom. The length of the call was less than 90 seconds. She said her name and said she was in classroom 112.

                                  12:10 p.m. — The caller tells 911 that multiple people were dead.

                                  12:13 p.m. — The female calls 911 again.

                                  12:15 p.m. — More technicians arrive with shields.

                                  12:16 p.m. — Female calls 911 again, adding that eight to nine students are still alive.

                                  12:19 p.m. — Another person, in room 111 called 911. “She hung up when another student told her to hang up,” McCraw said.

                                  12:21 p.m. — Suspect fires more shots at the door. Law enforcement moved down the hallway. A 911 call also captured three shots being fired.

                                  12:36 p.m. — Another 911 call lasted for 21 seconds. The caller, a student, stayed on the line quietly. “She told 911 that he shot the door,” McCraw said, adding that the student asked 911 to “please send the police now.”

                                  12:46 p.m. — Student tells 911 she can hear police next door.

                                  12:50 p.m. — Officers breach the door using keys obtained from a janitor and kill the suspect.

                                  12:51 p.m. — The 911 call was “loud” and “sounded like officers were moving children out of the room,” McCraw said.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • 89th8 Offline
                                    89th8 Offline
                                    89th
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #176

                                    The above is the timeline. That exterior door was obv a fatal error in retrospect. Ramos was firing at the school from the parking lot at first, didn’t seem like he had a plan but probably saw that door was propped open.

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • AxtremusA Axtremus

                                      @Jolly said in Texas shooting.:

                                      Actually, I gave you recommendations the other day from a guy that did executive security.

                                      How well does "executive security" translates to "public school security"?

                                      Security for a billionaire, his/her immediate family, and his/her entourage has got to have many significant differences than security for hundreds and thousands of public school children, right? The difference in cost of security $ per protected person has got to be huge, right?

                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      Jolly
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #177

                                      @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

                                      @Jolly said in Texas shooting.:

                                      Actually, I gave you recommendations the other day from a guy that did executive security.

                                      How well does "executive security" translates to "public school security"?

                                      Security for a billionaire, his/her immediate family, and his/her entourage has got to have many significant differences than security for hundreds and thousands of public school children, right? The difference in cost of security $ per protected person has got to be huge, right?

                                      In some respects, no.

                                      It's all about how to negate a threat and different venues, people, etc., will call for different responses using the resources allocated unto you.

                                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • MikM Offline
                                        MikM Offline
                                        Mik
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #178

                                        You get screened going into all sorts of public buildings and arenas. Should schools with our children be less secure?

                                        “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                        1 Reply Last reply
                                        • CopperC Offline
                                          CopperC Offline
                                          Copper
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #179

                                          Should anyplace be less secure?

                                          It used to be post offices and military bases.

                                          Did they become more secure or did the focus shift?

                                          Doctor PhibesD 1 Reply Last reply
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