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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Texas shooting.

Texas shooting.

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  • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

    @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

    @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

    @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

    So does my niece. And not just men, white men. She posted this. There is so much fallacious there that one scarcely knows where to start.

    alt text

    How is this worse than blaming it on trans-sexuals?

    The trans sexual thing appears to have gone away with some fact checking. That’s why it’s not as bad. Because it was falsifiable. This gentlelady”s opinion on the other hand is religious and not falsifiable. And of course mainstream adjacent, it not entirely mainstream.

    In both cases, the facts are falsifiable, but the opinions that led to the claim remain, in spite of the facts. Jolly essentially said that even though the shooter wasn't trans, he believes that trans people shouldn't be allowed to own guns as they're all 'mentally ill'.

    'Mentally ill' is such a massively broad term. Hey, let's stop the 'mentally ill' from owning guns. Even if they show no additional threat? The subset of the mentally ill that actually constitute a threat is very small. Let's expel people who get in a fight! Seriously? How many people didn't get in a fight at school?

    How about let's expel teenagers with a disdain for authority? That would pretty effectively end school shootings, for sure, since homeschooling would become the norm, and good luck!

    HoraceH Online
    HoraceH Online
    Horace
    wrote on last edited by
    #156

    @Doctor-Phibes said in Texas shooting.:

    In both cases, the facts are falsifiable, but the opinions that led to the claim remain, in spite of the facts. Jolly essentially said that even though the shooter wasn't trans, he believes that trans people shouldn't be allowed to own guns as they're all 'mentally ill'.

    So? How is that an insistence on blaming trans people for this shooting? It's not. Nobody's dug into that claim. People just mistakenly believed this guy was trans, and their minds changed upon some fact checking.

    As for whether gender confusion is a mental illness, I daresay 99.9% of us wouldn't have sniffed that out as a bit of raging hatred if it'd been presented to us as a clinical, sterile idea 30 years ago. Now we've all been told and cajoled that that idea is a bit of raging hatred, and now most of us believe that that idea is a bit of raging hatred. That's how that works.

    Education is extremely important.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • MikM Mik

      The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

      AxtremusA Offline
      AxtremusA Offline
      Axtremus
      wrote on last edited by
      #157

      @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

      The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

      I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

      Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

      MikM 1 Reply Last reply
      • JollyJ Jolly

        @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

        Texas Tribune article talking about proposals to "harden schools" with "single entrance" design:

        https://www.texastribune.org/2022/05/28/uvalde-shooting-school-doors/

        Actually, I gave you recommendations the other day from a guy that did executive security. Entrance and egress were among his evaluation.

        AxtremusA Offline
        AxtremusA Offline
        Axtremus
        wrote on last edited by
        #158

        @Jolly said in Texas shooting.:

        Actually, I gave you recommendations the other day from a guy that did executive security.

        How well does "executive security" translates to "public school security"?

        Security for a billionaire, his/her immediate family, and his/her entourage has got to have many significant differences than security for hundreds and thousands of public school children, right? The difference in cost of security $ per protected person has got to be huge, right?

        JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
        • AxtremusA Axtremus

          @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

          The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

          I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

          Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

          MikM Away
          MikM Away
          Mik
          wrote on last edited by
          #159

          @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

          @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

          The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

          I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

          Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

          Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

          “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

          Aqua LetiferA AxtremusA 2 Replies Last reply
          • MikM Mik

            @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

            @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

            The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

            I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

            Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

            Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

            Aqua LetiferA Offline
            Aqua LetiferA Offline
            Aqua Letifer
            wrote on last edited by
            #160

            @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

            @Axtremus said in Texas shooting.:

            @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

            The author points out rather trivial objections and situations that might make this an imperfect solution in some cases. My belief is it is the low hanging fruit and should be taken seriously. It works quite well in our district and can be done without the time and effort involved in firearm legislation.

            I wouldn't characterize all the objections as trivial. Indeed similar design concepts are being evaluated by/for schools here as well. Given the sizes of the school buildings and student populations here, though, actual proposals are more along the line of "multiple entrances, open just around school opening times to let students in quickly, then locked down all but one entrance during class hours." During class hours, the school may have select entrances opened to accommodate specific field/PE traffic, but otherwise will effectively have only one usable entrance that has other security design features to screen all comers.

            Even that sort of design concept costs a good sum to implement, and that's reflected in bond proposals and property tax discussions. Wanna guess who are the ones most likely to argue/vote against school bond proposals and against raising property taxes to fund these things? Yeah, the same folks most likely to vote/argue against stricter gun control regulations. It's like the rest of the population has to bear the non-trivial extra cost of "hardening school security" to accommodate the feelings of the pro-gun/anti-tax crowd, just to keep everyone's children safe.

            Like the author, your approach is assuming defeat at the hand of some imagined enemy simply because you won’t agree to anything but impossible gun control laws.

            What's your idea?

            Please love yourself.

            1 Reply Last reply
            • MikM Away
              MikM Away
              Mik
              wrote on last edited by Mik
              #161

              I already have said the first and easiest thing is to harden ingress to schools.

              “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

              Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
              • MikM Mik

                I already have said the first and easiest thing is to harden ingress to schools.

                Aqua LetiferA Offline
                Aqua LetiferA Offline
                Aqua Letifer
                wrote on last edited by
                #162

                @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                I already have said the first and easiest thing is to harden ingress to schools.

                Hey, I'm down. I don't see how that would actually help against people who really want to commit some violence, but it'd be something to try.

                Please love yourself.

                1 Reply Last reply
                • MikM Away
                  MikM Away
                  Mik
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #163

                  It would have kept Ramos out.

                  “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                  Aqua LetiferA 89th8 2 Replies Last reply
                  • MikM Away
                    MikM Away
                    Mik
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #164

                    Another suggestion? Keep classroom windows 6’ above grade or narrow enough to prevent a wide field of fire. Now this would only apply to schools built in the future, but it would work well if ingress was taken away.

                    “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • MikM Mik

                      It would have kept Ramos out.

                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                      Aqua Letifer
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #165

                      @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                      It would have kept Ramos out.

                      Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                      Please love yourself.

                      HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nycJ Offline
                        jon-nyc
                        wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
                        #166

                        Uvalde cops confront the trolly problem.

                        F1347F3E-2B1C-4374-928F-4511BD862542.jpeg

                        Only non-witches get due process.

                        • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • HoraceH Online
                          HoraceH Online
                          Horace
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #167

                          The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                          Education is extremely important.

                          jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
                          • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                            @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                            It would have kept Ramos out.

                            Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                            HoraceH Online
                            HoraceH Online
                            Horace
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #168

                            @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                            @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                            It would have kept Ramos out.

                            Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                            His planning for this attack didn't seem advanced enough to coordinate with bus schedules. And the death count would likely have been lower if he had done it that way.

                            Education is extremely important.

                            Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                            • HoraceH Horace

                              @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                              @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                              It would have kept Ramos out.

                              Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                              His planning for this attack didn't seem advanced enough to coordinate with bus schedules. And the death count would likely have been lower if he had done it that way.

                              Aqua LetiferA Offline
                              Aqua LetiferA Offline
                              Aqua Letifer
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #169

                              @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                              @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                              @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                              It would have kept Ramos out.

                              Show up during bus arrival and it doesn't really matter.

                              His planning for this attack didn't seem advanced enough to coordinate with bus schedules.

                              It doesn't take much to decide to show up at 4:00.

                              And the death count would likely have been lower if he had done it that way.

                              I doubt it.

                              Please love yourself.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • MikM Away
                                MikM Away
                                Mik
                                wrote on last edited by Mik
                                #170

                                No approach is going to be foolproof. But locked doors would have helped or prevented this situation. Nothing you can suggest for gun control will be foolproof either and will be far more difficult.

                                It is said politics is the art of the possible.

                                “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

                                1 Reply Last reply
                                • HoraceH Horace

                                  The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                  jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nycJ Offline
                                  jon-nyc
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #171

                                  @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                  The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                  Deserved, no?

                                  Only non-witches get due process.

                                  • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                                  HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                                    @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                    The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                    Deserved, no?

                                    HoraceH Online
                                    HoraceH Online
                                    Horace
                                    wrote on last edited by Horace
                                    #172

                                    @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                                    @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                    The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                    Deserved, no?

                                    Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job. It's easy to say each individual should go renegade and be dirty harry, but I think it's ignorant to think that would be the obvious decision in the moment. Unless you also think each individual who failed to make that obvious decision is a cowardly dirt bag. More likely that they're normal people, making normal decisions in an abnormal moment. But shitting on all of them will teach their counterparts throughout the country a lesson, so it's probably for the best.

                                    Education is extremely important.

                                    Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                                    • HoraceH Horace

                                      @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                                      @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                      The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                      Deserved, no?

                                      Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job. It's easy to say each individual should go renegade and be dirty harry, but I think it's ignorant to think that would be the obvious decision in the moment. Unless you also think each individual who failed to make that obvious decision is a cowardly dirt bag. More likely that they're normal people, making normal decisions in an abnormal moment. But shitting on all of them will teach their counterparts throughout the country a lesson, so it's probably for the best.

                                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                      Aqua LetiferA Offline
                                      Aqua Letifer
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #173

                                      @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                      @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                                      @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                      The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                      Deserved, no?

                                      Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job.

                                      Ah, the Nuremberg defense.

                                      Please love yourself.

                                      HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • Aqua LetiferA Aqua Letifer

                                        @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                        @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                                        @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                        The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                        Deserved, no?

                                        Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job.

                                        Ah, the Nuremberg defense.

                                        HoraceH Online
                                        HoraceH Online
                                        Horace
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #174

                                        @Aqua-Letifer said in Texas shooting.:

                                        @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                        @jon-nyc said in Texas shooting.:

                                        @Horace said in Texas shooting.:

                                        The country is going to take such a massive shit on those cops.

                                        Deserved, no?

                                        Probably deserved by one of them, some decision maker. Then the others fell in line, as is their job.

                                        Ah, the Nuremberg defense.

                                        You just keep on doing something. It's impressive.

                                        Education is extremely important.

                                        Aqua LetiferA 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • MikM Mik

                                          It would have kept Ramos out.

                                          89th8 Offline
                                          89th8 Offline
                                          89th
                                          wrote on last edited by 89th
                                          #175

                                          @Mik said in Texas shooting.:

                                          It would have kept Ramos out.

                                          11:27 a.m. — Video footage shows a teacher at Robb Elementary propping open an exterior door. Ramos reportedly entered through this door.

                                          11:28 a.m. — Ramos’ vehicle crashes near the school. A teacher ran back to a classroom to get a phone and came back to the door, allowing it to remain open. Two men, at a nearby funeral home, made their way to the crash scene where they saw Ramos exit the vehicle from the passenger side with a gun and backpack. The witnesses reportedly began running and Ramos tried shooting at them.

                                          11:30 a.m. — 911 receives a phone call that there was a man who crashed his vehicle and has a gun.

                                          11:31 a.m. — Ramos “reaches the last row of vehicles in the school parking lot,” McCraw said. The 18-year-old began shooting at the school, while police responded to the funeral home. McCraw adds that previous statements that officers confronted Ramos were inaccurate, and that an officer who heard the 911 call “drove immediately to the area he thought was the man with the gun, to the back of the school, which turned out to be a teacher.” McCraw said the officer drove by the suspect, who was “hunkered down behind a vehicle.”

                                          11:32 a.m. — Ramos fires multiple shots at the school from outside, then enters the building.

                                          11:33 a.m. — Ramos begins shooting in a classroom. McCraw says audio evidence from video footage shows Ramos shooting over 100 rounds.

                                          11:35 a.m. — Three officers enter the school through the same doors that Ramos reportedly entered. Later, four more officers joined. The initial three officers were shot at, and some were grazed by bullets. Ramos shut the door to the classroom.

                                          11:37 a.m. — Over 16 rounds are fired.

                                          11:51 a.m. — More police begin to arrive.

                                          12:03 p.m. — As many as 19 police officers were in the hallway outside the classroom. McCraw said they believed the active shooter situation had transitioned into a barricaded person call. A female caller dialed 911 from the classroom. The length of the call was less than 90 seconds. She said her name and said she was in classroom 112.

                                          12:10 p.m. — The caller tells 911 that multiple people were dead.

                                          12:13 p.m. — The female calls 911 again.

                                          12:15 p.m. — More technicians arrive with shields.

                                          12:16 p.m. — Female calls 911 again, adding that eight to nine students are still alive.

                                          12:19 p.m. — Another person, in room 111 called 911. “She hung up when another student told her to hang up,” McCraw said.

                                          12:21 p.m. — Suspect fires more shots at the door. Law enforcement moved down the hallway. A 911 call also captured three shots being fired.

                                          12:36 p.m. — Another 911 call lasted for 21 seconds. The caller, a student, stayed on the line quietly. “She told 911 that he shot the door,” McCraw said, adding that the student asked 911 to “please send the police now.”

                                          12:46 p.m. — Student tells 911 she can hear police next door.

                                          12:50 p.m. — Officers breach the door using keys obtained from a janitor and kill the suspect.

                                          12:51 p.m. — The 911 call was “loud” and “sounded like officers were moving children out of the room,” McCraw said.

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