Breakthrough infection stats

[xenon]

@jolly said in Breakthrough infection stats:

How are the unvaccinated being selfish, if they are the most likely to become seriously ill or die? Especially in light of George's Lancet article.

Remember, I told you that down here over the last month, about 20% of the COVID patients admitted to hospital were fully vaccinated.

Just so I understand, you’re saying there’s no social benefits of more people being vaccinated?

[Jolly]

Don't extrapolate young man. I didn't say there were no social benefits. I do question the statement that the unvaxxed are selfish.

[LuFins Dad]

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

At the very least, can we agree that people who don't get the vaccines are being selfish and kinda asshole-ish? (Unless you have a legit medical reason not to)

With the amount of safety data we have on this - it seems like it's safer to get this vaccine than it is driving on a highway (maybe not, but it feels pretty damn safe).

There are real social costs to people not getting the vaccine (over-filled hospitals, prolonging the pandemic)

In what ways are they being selfish? In causing the virus to spread more? The vaccinated are doing so, too. Unfortunately, we have no numbers to guess by what amount, sure would be nice to quantify…

In endangering those that cannot take the vaccine or the vaccine is ineffective? Well, if the vaccinated are spreading as well and at significant levels, then the risk is still there.

[Aqua Letifer]

@lufins-dad said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

At the very least, can we agree that people who don't get the vaccines are being selfish and kinda asshole-ish? (Unless you have a legit medical reason not to)

With the amount of safety data we have on this - it seems like it's safer to get this vaccine than it is driving on a highway (maybe not, but it feels pretty damn safe).

There are real social costs to people not getting the vaccine (over-filled hospitals, prolonging the pandemic)

In what ways are they being selfish? In causing the virus to spread more? The vaccinated are doing so, too.

Not nearly at the level of the vaccinated. They're also using significantly more resources in our medical system when they do get sick.

[Jolly]

Medical resources are an issue that isn't going away, but COVID has been the scapegoat for some issues that were already present.

Medicine is quickly becoming overwhelmingly corporate with all the problems that MBA's, clipboard carriers and the government can bring to bear.

[LuFins Dad]

@aqua-letifer said in Breakthrough infection stats:

Not nearly at the level of the vaccinated.

There is no data to justify that supposition. As shown earlier in this thread, the stats for the breakthrough cases are only those cases that visit a hospital. They aren’t counting the others that have mild symptoms. There’s very good reason to believe the reported number of breakthrough cases are 1/10th the actual number or even less. After all, if 10% of unvaccinated cases result in hospitalization then the number should be far less for a vaccine that reduces the severity of the disease, no?

[Jolly]

As part of protocol, any patient admitted to our little hospital has a rapid COVID test done. We admit 2-4/day. At least once per week, sometimes twice, they get an asymptomatic COVID positive admit, being admitted for some other condition.

[George K]

@jolly said in Breakthrough infection stats:

Medicine is quickly becoming overwhelmingly corporate

https://nodebb.the-new-coffee-room.club/category/2/general-discussion

[Jolly]

25% vs. 38%?

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(21)00648-4/fulltext#seccestitle160

[Copper]

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@copper said in Breakthrough infection stats:

?

define legit

Did you just bristle at me using a short form of “legitimate” or do you really want examples of conditions where people can’t get a vaccine for medical reasons?

Right or wrong a lot of people are legitimately terrified of the vaccine

I know, I know, everyone here is superior to that

This has nothing to do with “superior”. That’s some sort of cultural argument. I, for completely selfish reasons, want the number of vaccinations to get as high as possible so we can all better move on with our lives. I don’t really personally know or care about who these people are.

So, sorry no, we don't all agree

That’s an interesting argument. So you think these people may have an unjustified fear, that fear has negative implications for society, but their heart is in the right place so we should have kindness and understanding.

I didn’t realize you were so tolerant and empathetic.

And I have had 6 vaccinations in the last year, anyone who has had fewer is selfish

I was simply answering your question

No I don't agree with all this stuff you are making up

Let's keep it simple

can we agree that people who don't get the vaccines are being selfish

No, we can't all agree with that

[xenon]

@copper said in [Breakthrough infection stats]

No, we can't all agree with that

So this is an interesting thread. A lot of smart people think there are no social benefit to people getting vaccinated.

At the very least I would have thought the strain on hospital resources and medical professions would count.

Beyond that, with a vaccinated population this thing truly moves into “flu” territory… so people should become less fearful of it the more deaths plummet.

I would think that’s a benefit.

And lastly, it’s the most practical thing we can do to protect ourselves. After that, it’s truly just back up to chance (again, like the flu).

[Aqua Letifer]

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@copper said in [Breakthrough infection stats]

No, we can't all agree with that

So this is an interesting thread. A lot of smart people think there are no social benefit to people not getting vaccinated.

At the very least I would have thought the strain on hospital resources and medical professions would count.

Beyond that, with a vaccinated population this thing truly moves into “flu” territory… so people should become less fearful of it the more deaths plummet.

I would think that’s a benefit.

And lastly, it’s the most practical thing we can do to protect ourselves. After that, it’s truly just back up to chance (again, like the flu).

Tribes trump smarts.

[Copper]

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@copper said in [Breakthrough infection stats]

No, we can't all agree with that

So this is an interesting thread. A lot of smart people think there are no social benefit to people not getting vaccinated.

At the very least I would have thought the strain on hospital resources and medical professions would count.

Beyond that, with a vaccinated population this thing truly moves into “flu” territory… so people should become less fearful of it the more deaths plummet.

I would think that’s a benefit.

And lastly, it’s the most practical thing we can do to protect ourselves. After that, it’s truly just back up to chance (again, like the flu).

Wrong again

Can I make it even more simple?

Selfishness is not the only reason

[xenon]

@copper said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@copper said in [Breakthrough infection stats]

No, we can't all agree with that

So this is an interesting thread. A lot of smart people think there are no social benefit to people not getting vaccinated.

At the very least I would have thought the strain on hospital resources and medical professions would count.

Beyond that, with a vaccinated population this thing truly moves into “flu” territory… so people should become less fearful of it the more deaths plummet.

I would think that’s a benefit.

And lastly, it’s the most practical thing we can do to protect ourselves. After that, it’s truly just back up to chance (again, like the flu).

Wrong again

Can I make it even more simple?

Selfishness is not the only reason

So make it clear then. At least I spell out what I think. Do you think there are social benefits to vaccination or not? The selfish question is downstream of that.

[LuFins Dad]

@copper said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@copper said in Breakthrough infection stats:

?

define legit

Did you just bristle at me using a short form of “legitimate” or do you really want examples of conditions where people can’t get a vaccine for medical reasons?

Right or wrong a lot of people are legitimately terrified of the vaccine

I know, I know, everyone here is superior to that

This has nothing to do with “superior”. That’s some sort of cultural argument. I, for completely selfish reasons, want the number of vaccinations to get as high as possible so we can all better move on with our lives. I don’t really personally know or care about who these people are.

So, sorry no, we don't all agree

That’s an interesting argument. So you think these people may have an unjustified fear, that fear has negative implications for society, but their heart is in the right place so we should have kindness and understanding.

I didn’t realize you were so tolerant and empathetic.

And I have had 6 vaccinations in the last year, anyone who has had fewer is selfish

I was simply answering your question

No I don't agree with all this stuff you are making up

Let's keep it simple

can we agree that people who don't get the vaccines are being selfish

No, we can't all agree with that

Selfish? These bve soups are taking on the risk of catching COVID knowing there is a very small risk that they could get seriously ill just so these vaccines can get to those at greater risk. There are 50 million unused J&J vaccines that can now be sent to at risk people in foreign countries thanks to these heroes…

Seriously though? Let’s not pretend that we got vaccinated for unselfish reasons. We got vaccinated because A) we didn’t want to catch the virus and B) we wanted to get back to normal life. Work, travel, entertainment, and maybe even not having to wear those damn masks. Nobody said “I really don’t want to get this vaccine, but for the sake of the immune compromised I will step forward and be their shield! Huzzah!

[Jolly]

@aqua-letifer said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@copper said in [Breakthrough infection stats]

No, we can't all agree with that

So this is an interesting thread. A lot of smart people think there are no social benefit to people not getting vaccinated.

At the very least I would have thought the strain on hospital resources and medical professions would count.

Beyond that, with a vaccinated population this thing truly moves into “flu” territory… so people should become less fearful of it the more deaths plummet.

I would think that’s a benefit.

And lastly, it’s the most practical thing we can do to protect ourselves. After that, it’s truly just back up to chance (again, like the flu).

Tribes trump smarts.

You ain't that dumb.

[Jolly]

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

Beyond that, with a vaccinated population this thing truly moves into “flu” territory… so people should become less fearful of it the more deaths plummet.

That was going to happen, vaccine or no.

[LuFins Dad]

@jolly said in Breakthrough infection stats:

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

Beyond that, with a vaccinated population this thing truly moves into “flu” territory… so people should become less fearful of it the more deaths plummet.

That was going to happen, vaccine or no.

An argument could be made that it would happen sooner if those at little risk went unvaccinated, no? Of course, that would mean somewhere near 500,000,000 hospitalizations and 50,000,000 dead over a pretty short period of time, so that would suck.

I think the biggest issue for the unvaccinated is a comprehension of the macro vs. the micro. They look at it on a personal level. They feel it's a small chance they will get it and even if they do, there's a less than 1% chance that it will be lethal (they are tending to ignore the suck that is Long COVID...) So why purposefully expose themselves to the risk of the vaccine? What they aren't seeing is that while that may be the individual odds for them on the micro-level, on the macro those percentages translate into over 4,000,000 dead and the hospitals being flooded with 40,000,000 cases....

[Copper]

@xenon said in Breakthrough infection stats:

So make it clear then. At least I spell out what I think. Do you think there are social benefits to vaccination or not? The selfish question is downstream of that.

I don't know what you mean by social benefits.

Even if I did know, I doubt I would be willing to say that people who don't get the vaccines are being selfish.

For example the WHO specifically excludes some with allergies from taking the vaccine.

Are these people selfish because they didn't risk their lives in order to protect yours? I guess maybe you could say that.

[Horace]

Going out and interacting with other people is selfish, full stop.