Orange Man Bad
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I'd like to hear from some of the people who declare themselves "Never TRumpers" or whatever what policy decisions, what governmental actions that 45 made were "bad."
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country. What "evil" has he perpetrated?
@taiwan_girl got me to thinking about this because she seems to feel that you can't be an old fashioned Republican and be in favor of Trump?
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
How about his attack on democracy by attempting to destroy trust in the fairness of elections without any substantial evidence? I'd imagine that this would be a GOP principle.
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@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
How about his attack on democracy by attempting to destroy trust in the fairness of elections without any substantial evidence? I'd imagine that this would be a GOP principle.
@klaus said in Orange Man Bad:
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
How about his attack on democracy by attempting to destroy trust in the fairness of elections without any substantial evidence? I'd imagine that this would be a GOP principle.
Yes his stolen election rhetoric was certainly in the con column.
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His deficit spending (even prior to the pandemic) was as bad as almost any Democrats and helped pave the way for Biden to be able to propose a 6 fucking trillion dollar budget ABOVE the special spending bills that have been proposed.
His tax reform disincentivized home ownership and charitable giving.
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His deficit spending (even prior to the pandemic) was as bad as almost any Democrats and helped pave the way for Biden to be able to propose a 6 fucking trillion dollar budget ABOVE the special spending bills that have been proposed.
His tax reform disincentivized home ownership and charitable giving.
@lufins-dad said in Orange Man Bad:
His deficit spending (even prior to the pandemic) was as bad as almost any Democrats
Probably worse.
His tax reform disincentivized home ownership and charitable giving.
The SALT cap is a big deal. Of course, no one comments that it taxed "the rich." Is there any evidence that charitable giving and home ownership declined after passage of the tax cut, or as Jon would phrase it the "Trump tax hike"?
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@lufins-dad said in Orange Man Bad:
His deficit spending (even prior to the pandemic) was as bad as almost any Democrats
Probably worse.
His tax reform disincentivized home ownership and charitable giving.
The SALT cap is a big deal. Of course, no one comments that it taxed "the rich." Is there any evidence that charitable giving and home ownership declined after passage of the tax cut, or as Jon would phrase it the "Trump tax hike"?
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
Is there any evidence that charitable giving ... declined
No, there's not:
For taxpayers who itemize, the charitable deduction is one of the top deductions they claim, along with the mortgage interest deduction and the state and local tax deduction. The fear among charities was that reducing the number of taxpayers who itemized would reduce the incentive for people to donate to charity, the assumption being that a tax deduction is a motivating factor for many people to be charitable.
To be sure, a tax deduction may motivate some people but, contrary to our intuition, the data tends to show that charitable giving has increased as top tax rates have fallen and the personal cost of giving has gone up. You see, the value of a tax deduction depends upon the marginal tax rate by which it is taken. When the top marginal tax rate was 70 percent in 1980, a taxpayer saved $70 in taxes for every $100 they donated. The resulting “cost” of giving to them was $30 because the remainder was effectively charged to Uncle Sam. Today, the top marginal tax rate is 37 percent, so the personal cost of contributing $100 is $63, twice the cost of giving forty years ago.
This chart shows the changes to the top marginal tax rates for married couples since 1979 contrasted to the growth in charitable giving adjusted to today’s dollars. After a dramatic drop during the 1980s from 70 percent to 28 percent, the top individual tax rate has hovered between 35 percent and 39.6 percent for the past three decades. While tax rates have declined, we can see that charitable giving has more than doubled in real terms since 1979, from $129 billion to $310 billion today. There would seem to be an inverse correlation between tax rates and giving: lower rates mean increased giving.
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@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country
Can the two be separated?
For instance, I'd argue he has reduced American influence in the world by annoying or insulting allies for no good reason, and for being an unreliable partner in general who walks back -via Twitter- from promises 20 min after he got on his plane
@klaus said in Orange Man Bad:
For instance, I'd argue he has reduced American influence in the world by annoying or insulting allies for no good reason, and for being an unreliable partner in general who walks back -via Twitter- from promises 20 min after he got on his plane
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I'd like to hear from some of the people who declare themselves "Never TRumpers" or whatever what policy decisions, what governmental actions that 45 made were "bad."
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country. What "evil" has he perpetrated?
@taiwan_girl got me to thinking about this because she seems to feel that you can't be an old fashioned Republican and be in favor of Trump?
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
The GOP has principles?
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@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
The GOP has principles?
@doctor-phibes said in Orange Man Bad:
The GOP has principles?
(Insert Groucho Marx quote here:_________________________)
"Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08
The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.
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I'd like to hear from some of the people who declare themselves "Never TRumpers" or whatever what policy decisions, what governmental actions that 45 made were "bad."
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country. What "evil" has he perpetrated?
@taiwan_girl got me to thinking about this because she seems to feel that you can't be an old fashioned Republican and be in favor of Trump?
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
I'd like to hear from some of the people who declare themselves "Never TRumpers" or whatever what policy decisions, what governmental actions that 45 made were "bad."
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country. What "evil" has he perpetrated?
@taiwan_girl got me to thinking about this because she seems to feel that you can't be an old fashioned Republican and be in favor of Trump?
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
Haven't gotten a whole lot, did you?
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@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country. What "evil" has he perpetrated?
@taiwan_girl got me to thinking about this because she seems to feel that you can't be an old fashioned Republican and be in favor of Trump?
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
@renauda said in Orange Man Bad:
I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
The left proudly installed the cultural idea that Trump is not worthy of rational discussion. He's a non-starter, full stop. So no, there will never be widespread rational discourse about his pros and cons as a POTUS. But there are pockets of such discussion, and always have been, on the right.
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@renauda said in Orange Man Bad:
I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
The left proudly installed the cultural idea that Trump is not worthy of rational discussion. He's a non-starter, full stop. So no, there will never be widespread rational discourse about his pros and cons as a POTUS. But there are pockets of such discussion, and always have been, on the right.
@horace said in Orange Man Bad:
@renauda said in Orange Man Bad:
I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
The left proudly installed the cultural idea that Trump is not worthy of rational discussion. He's a non-starter, full stop. So no, there will never be widespread rational discourse about his pros and cons as a POTUS. But there are pockets of such discussion, and always have been, on the right.
There's been no shortage of bollocks talked on the right. Contrast Mitch McConnel's take on Trump before, during and after.
So where is he being honest and rational? Before? After? Both? Neither?
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@horace said in Orange Man Bad:
@renauda said in Orange Man Bad:
I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
The left proudly installed the cultural idea that Trump is not worthy of rational discussion. He's a non-starter, full stop. So no, there will never be widespread rational discourse about his pros and cons as a POTUS. But there are pockets of such discussion, and always have been, on the right.
There's been no shortage of bollocks talked on the right. Contrast Mitch McConnel's take on Trump before, during and after.
So where is he being honest and rational? Before? After? Both? Neither?
@doctor-phibes said in Orange Man Bad:
@horace said in Orange Man Bad:
@renauda said in Orange Man Bad:
I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
The left proudly installed the cultural idea that Trump is not worthy of rational discussion. He's a non-starter, full stop. So no, there will never be widespread rational discourse about his pros and cons as a POTUS. But there are pockets of such discussion, and always have been, on the right.
There's been no shortage of bollocks talked on the right. Contrast Mitch McConnel's take on Trump before, during and after.
So where is he being honest and rational? Before? After? Both? Neither?
Any discussion that admits to the existence of tradeoffs and compromises when selecting a single human being as president is more rational than the TDS or never-Trump conversation about Trump. It's right there in the name, "Never". I don't think "Never Trumpers" ever even objected to being called that. TDS never sat well with them, of course, but one doesn't need to try very hard to follow the logic from "Never Trumper" to a derangement of logic and judgment.
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@doctor-phibes said in Orange Man Bad:
@horace said in Orange Man Bad:
@renauda said in Orange Man Bad:
I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
The left proudly installed the cultural idea that Trump is not worthy of rational discussion. He's a non-starter, full stop. So no, there will never be widespread rational discourse about his pros and cons as a POTUS. But there are pockets of such discussion, and always have been, on the right.
There's been no shortage of bollocks talked on the right. Contrast Mitch McConnel's take on Trump before, during and after.
So where is he being honest and rational? Before? After? Both? Neither?
Any discussion that admits to the existence of tradeoffs and compromises when selecting a single human being as president is more rational than the TDS or never-Trump conversation about Trump. It's right there in the name, "Never". I don't think "Never Trumpers" ever even objected to being called that. TDS never sat well with them, of course, but one doesn't need to try very hard to follow the logic from "Never Trumper" to a derangement of logic and judgment.
@horace said in Orange Man Bad:
@doctor-phibes said in Orange Man Bad:
@horace said in Orange Man Bad:
@renauda said in Orange Man Bad:
I believe only Americans themselves will be able answer that question when the time comes. Right now I don't think the country is ready to have that conversation. Not sure when that time will come. Perhaps never.
The left proudly installed the cultural idea that Trump is not worthy of rational discussion. He's a non-starter, full stop. So no, there will never be widespread rational discourse about his pros and cons as a POTUS. But there are pockets of such discussion, and always have been, on the right.
There's been no shortage of bollocks talked on the right. Contrast Mitch McConnel's take on Trump before, during and after.
So where is he being honest and rational? Before? After? Both? Neither?
Any discussion that admits to the existence of tradeoffs and compromises when selecting a single human being as president is more rational than the TDS or never-Trump conversation about Trump. It's right there in the name, "Never". I don't think "Never Trumpers" ever even objected to being called that. TDS never sat well with them, of course, but one doesn't need to try very hard to follow the logic from "Never Trumper" to a derangement of logic and judgment.
You don't have to say 'Never', but you also don't have to pretend that he's somehow transformed from a jackass into a great man. Self-respect is a thing.
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@doctor-phibes said in Orange Man Bad:
The GOP has principles?
(Insert Groucho Marx quote here:_________________________)
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
@doctor-phibes said in Orange Man Bad:
The GOP has principles?
(Insert Groucho Marx quote here:_________________________)
Reminds me of biography I read of Lord Byron. He was reading the paper one day where the gossip columns of the day were decrying his morals. Turning to his housekeeper, he asked her, "what do you think of what they're saying about my morals?"
"First time, I've heard it suggested that you have any," was her reply.
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Here's a counter question. Is a justifiable way to address serious issues affecting the country such as illegal immigration by pandering to xenophobes and racists?
Does it matter what somebody says, or is policy the only thing that is important?
Is it OK to vote for a bully, a liar and a con-man if he gets things done?
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Yeah, kinda what Jolly said.
Those terms xenophobe, racist, yadadayadada. There's no sting in those terms, although plenty of people are still pointing fingers any which way.
And, I think millions of people have thought long and hard about it, and if accused of being a racist etc., yawn, -- they have their own pushback for the rage machine usage of terms as inappropriate and a non-argument. Or more sophisticated people like me, where "I know you are but what am I?" works just fine. And causes the rage addicts to turn purple. (of course I've never really tried it, yet).
What's this topic again? -
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
How about his attack on democracy by attempting to destroy trust in the fairness of elections without any substantial evidence? I'd imagine that this would be a GOP principle.
@klaus said in Orange Man Bad:
How about his attack on democracy by attempting to destroy trust in the fairness of elections without any substantial evidence? I'd imagine that this would be a GOP principle
This is one part that still boggles my mind. Had Obama tried what Trump did with the “I will never accept the election results!” and months of associated lies, false claims, and incitement, you would’ve seen an absolutely nuclear meltdown from many conservatives on this forum. Yet because it was Trump...
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I'd like to hear from some of the people who declare themselves "Never TRumpers" or whatever what policy decisions, what governmental actions that 45 made were "bad."
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country. What "evil" has he perpetrated?
@taiwan_girl got me to thinking about this because she seems to feel that you can't be an old fashioned Republican and be in favor of Trump?
Why not? What in his policies, actions, etc were against GOP principles?
@george-k said in Orange Man Bad:
I'm not talking about his reprehensible personality, his erratic behavior, his off-the-cuff remarks, his (yeah @89th , I'm looking at you) lies. What actual policies were bad for the country. What "evil" has he perpetrated?
As I have been known to do
I will repeat myself.I’ve said many times I thought Trump pushed the conservative agenda forward nicely on many fronts (most significantly on the Supreme Court).
Heck, I was considering voting for him as of his Jan 2020 State of the Union speech... however my primary issues with him include his incessant lying and making up facts on the fly (or even using the Bible as a photo-op prop?), but the main issues for me were his handling of Covid early on...major fumbles and poor leadership, and ultimately his absolute cardinal sin of democracy of not accepting his election loss. How any conservative is fine with that is beyond me...an absolute cornerstone of democracy was rejected by Trump.
Anyway...so again, my main issues were his lying, fumbling of the greatest health crisis in a generation, and his anti-democratic handling of his election loss.
