French Government Says No to Virginity Test

[Jolly]

@brenda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly There's never any honor killings of the daughters?

I suspect in an honor killing, there are laws broken along with harm done to the individual and to French society.

[Jolly]

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

[Jolly]

@catseye3 said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

when there is no demonstrable harm to society.

And what are women in your understanding of 'society'? Chopped liver?

Go back and read what I said.

[Doctor Phibes]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat. In fact, it is illegal so I don't need to.

[Jolly]

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat.

How about male circumcision?

[Doctor Phibes]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat.

How about male circumcision?

To be honest, if there's no medical reason for doing it, yes.

[Jolly]

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Jolly, with all due respect Western civilization has moved beyond women being mere chattels. If Muslims want to perform such abominations in Saudi Arabia or some other country ruled by superstition over reason that is possibly their business, but in France it is as much the the secular Republic's business as much as the family's tribe and patriarchy's so called and imagined honour.

Next you'll be finding excuses for FGM to accommodate their vile acts of superstition.

Would you also outlaw circumcision?

I'd outlaw female circumcision in a heartbeat.

How about male circumcision?

To be honest, if there's no medical reason for doing it, yes.

In the context of this thread, which is the more invasive procedure (not to mention painful) and more prone to complications, a circumcision or a "virginity check"?

[Doctor Phibes]

I just said I'd outlaw it, so what's the point of the question?

The question regarding virginity check has nothing to do with invasiveness, in any event. It's a method used to keep women in their place, and it has no place in a modern liberal society.

[Jolly]

@doctor-phibes said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

I just said I'd outlaw it, so what's the point of the question?

The question regarding virginity check has nothing to do with invasiveness, in any event. It's a method used to keep women in their place, and it has no place in a modern liberal society.

The Jewish faith demands circumcision. The Muslim faith highly values the virgin bride. I see more problem with the former than the latter when it comes to personal decisions and the lack of freedom of the individual.

In either case, does it really impact the way society functions?

What business does a modern society enacting laws in either situation create a benefit to society?

[Renauda]

@doctor-phibes

I would contend that a virginity check is invasive on a woman's right to privacy. Otherwise, I agree wholly with what you have written.

[Jolly]

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes

I would contend that a virginity check is invasive on a woman's right to privacy. Otherwise, I agree wholly with what you have written.

It's only invasive if she does not consent.

[Copper]

Yes, let consenting adults take it or leave it

If the man insists and she refuses, that is a good indication that the wedding is probably a bad idea, but that is their business.

[Renauda]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes

I would contend that a virginity check is invasive on a woman's right to privacy. Otherwise, I agree wholly with what you have written.

It's only invasive if she does not consent.

The minuscule libertarian part of me would really like to agree with that sentiment. In the end though, I cannot. It leaves the door too wide open for the perpetuation of cultural practices that have no place in a secular liberal society. The French state is correct to outlaw it.

[brenda]

@jolly Failing a virginity test, whether the daughter is a virgin or not, is often used as the basis for an honor killing of her. Allowing the virginity test puts a young women at risk for murder at the hands of her own family. I would call that harm to society, and especially to the women. The tests can give false results, so even virgins are at risk.

I think about the fear a young woman would have, because within that culture, she knows all about honor killings. No wonder they try to flee.

[brenda]

@jolly said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@renauda said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

@doctor-phibes

I would contend that a virginity check is invasive on a woman's right to privacy. Otherwise, I agree wholly with what you have written.

It's only invasive if she does not consent.

Does she have any option to not consent when that will be construed as evidence she would 'fail'? The repercussions for her are enormous, including the penalty of death.

[Horace]

Muslim culture is garbage, the countries under its influence are shit holes, and images of Mohammed are funny looking which is why they are prohibited.

[brenda]

@copper Her family also insists on this testing to prove they are honorable. She may not be given any choice by anyone involved.

[Catseye3]

"Honor killing" . . . not the most fortuitous phrase ever coined.

[Doctor Phibes]

@copper said in French Government Says No to Virginity Test:

Yes, let consenting adults take it or leave it

If the man insists and she refuses, that is a good indication that the wedding is probably a bad idea, but that is their business.

You don't know many Muslims, do you?

[LuFins Dad]

I personally find the reasoning behind it morally and ethically abhorrent, and on a practical basis, pretty effin stupid. I assume that they are checking for the presence of an intact hymen? Young ladies can lose their hymen for many reasons other than sexual intercourse...

I'm not sure the ban will be very effective at ending the practice, however, and may even backfire. Wouldn't an intact or broken hymen be evident in a standard gynecological exam? Is France going to ban gynecological exams for Muslims now? Or are they going to ban Muslims from going into that particular medical practice?