Patriots Only
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 14:03 last edited by
Patriotism is at odds with thinking first and feeling second, for those of us who want to make the hopelessly un-self-aware claim that we consider all lives across the world and all societies to be of equal importance. Patriotism is selfish. You can accept that or you can lie to yourself about it. But even if it’s selfish, it is not unfair or immoral, if everybody else from everywhere else is patriotic too. Which they are. The retreat from patriotism is a particular mental illness born mostly by privileged westerners.
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 14:29 last edited by
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
-
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 14:56 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
Yes I’m sure patriotism can be seen as a gateway to cultish insanity. Meanwhile, it’s a word in the language which describes an inevitable thing felt by almost everybody and which falls far short of cultish insanity.
-
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
Yes I’m sure patriotism can be seen as a gateway to cultish insanity. Meanwhile, it’s a word in the language which describes an inevitable thing felt by almost everybody and which falls far short of cultish insanity.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 15:14 last edited by Doctor Phibes@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
Patriotism is just a form of tribalism.
We put our family first. We think our religion is best. We support a football team with absolutely no good reason, particularly the one named 'Patriots'.
A retreat from patriotism can be just an acknowledgment that 'my country, right or wrong' isn't always a very good idea. In fact, in some cases it's a really, really bad idea if patriotism becomes nationalism, and then nationalism becomes a cult-like experience.
Yes I’m sure patriotism can be seen as a gateway to cultish insanity. Meanwhile, it’s a word in the language which describes an inevitable thing felt by almost everybody and which falls far short of cultish insanity.
My original point was to be suspicious when people use it as a reason for doing something, not that it's inherently bad. There's a very old and famous saying made by Samuel Johnson, the author of one of the first English dictionaries, about it being the last refuge of a scoundrel.
I'd say that the statement by the Chinese government falls under this description pretty well.
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 15:18 last edited by
What do the native Chinese people think of it? Are they all scoundrels? Patriots? Indoctrinated automatons? Terrified of expressing what they really think out of fear of retribution?
-
What do the native Chinese people think of it? Are they all scoundrels? Patriots? Indoctrinated automatons? Terrified of expressing what they really think out of fear of retribution?
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 15:22 last edited by@horace said in Patriots Only:
What do the native Chinese people think of it? Are they all scoundrels? Patriots? Indoctrinated automatons? Terrified of expressing what they really think out of fear of retribution?
The people of Hong Kong are being brutalized and marginalized in the name of patriotic duty and the glories of Communism. How do you think they feel - patriotic?
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 15:25 last edited by
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
-
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 15:37 last edited by@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 15:41 last edited by
I think Patriotism is an amoral concept. It can be used for good or bad.
I do think people are re-ordering their values so that Patriotism is moving down the hierarchy.
I agree that leftwingers are more willing to deprioritize it. But even conservatives - I'm starting to see more kinship across political ideologies than countryman.
Said another way - I think that most American conservatives would probably feel more kinship with a UK or Canadian conservative than they would with an American lefty.
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 15:47 last edited by Doctor Phibes
Also, loving one's country isn't the same as thinking it's the greatest place on earth. I know there are plenty of things that are pretty awful about the UK, but when I visit, I still feel as though I'm coming home. That's not a patriotic feeling, it's a feeling of belonging.
There's also a difference between loving your country and supporting the idiots who run it. The idea that I should go along with a war I don't understand because my country has joined it doesn't make sense. My grandfather and his six brothers all volunteered in 1914 out of a sense of patriotic duty. He regretted it for the rest of his life.
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 16:10 last edited by
If the citizens of a country are not proud of their country, it won't be long before they are not citizens. The country will not exist.
-
@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 18:14 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
It would be interesting to know how the rank and file native Chinese populace feels about it. It's pretty easy for a westerner to go off the rails in an attempt at projecting their own values and opinions onto that culture.
-
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
It would be interesting to know how the rank and file native Chinese populace feels about it. It's pretty easy for a westerner to go off the rails in an attempt at projecting their own values and opinions onto that culture.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 18:43 last edited by@horace said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
That might be a good word, yes. Care to offer up a better word? Cultish? Maniacally bloodthirsty? Indoctrinated and ignorant? Thoughtless?
I imagine many feel as though they're being brutalized by a tyrannical government who are using the word 'patriot' to describe people who are willing to go along with this.
It would be interesting to know how the rank and file native Chinese populace feels about it. It's pretty easy for a westerner to go off the rails in an attempt at projecting their own values and opinions onto that culture.
I suspect the people in mainland China aren't exactly getting the full picture. The people of Hong Kong weren't ruled by China until 1997, so I'd guess that maybe they have a somewhat different perspective.
-
Patriotism is a very nebulous concept at best, and is frequently exploited for nefarious ends by very unpleasant people.
What China is doing to Hong Kong is a long way from being patriotic.
In the West, many would say that holding the government to account for its actions is patriotic. Others would say that criticising, for example, going to war, is unpatriotic, as it undermines the troops, blah blah blah.
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 18:49 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
-
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 18:56 last edited by
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
-
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:13 last edited by@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
-
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:17 last edited by Doctor Phibes@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words. Hunger, or Anger, or Irritation, or Taxation, or even 'An interest in farmyard animals'.
You can't say the same about Doctor Johnson's, except possibly for the last one.
-
@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:33 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward. Or ______ is the last refuge of a _____. A person could have all kinds of fun with this one....
-
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@axtremus said in Patriots Only:
@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
I tend to get very suspicious as soon as anybody uses patriotism as a justification for doing anything, as it generally means that they don't have a genuinely good reason to do it.
"Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel" ... I think I have seen you quoted that a few times before.
I love the quote. I'm amazed that anybody noticed
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward. Or ______ is the last refuge of a _____. A person could have all kinds of fun with this one....
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:38 last edited by@jolly said in Patriots Only:
Or name calling is the last refuge of a coward.
Sorry, but that's bollocks. Name calling is the last refuge of somebody who's run out of decent arguments. Not very pithy, I know. Running away is the last refuge of a coward.
-
@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words. Hunger, or Anger, or Irritation, or Taxation, or even 'An interest in farmyard animals'.
You can't say the same about Doctor Johnson's, except possibly for the last one.
wrote on 31 Mar 2021, 19:48 last edited by@doctor-phibes said in Patriots Only:
@horace said in Patriots Only:
“Patriotism is inevitable and participated in by everybody to some extent. If it is taken to insanely destructive extremes, then stop calling it patriotism. Find a better word.”
-Horace, TNCR
That quote really resonates with me.
Yes, but you can replace the word 'patriotism' in that sentence with any number of words.
My point being, it is a convenient turn of phrase to take a word that doesn't have a negative moral connotation, and put it in a negative light just by saying it can be taken to horrible extremes.
You're more than happy to see the word "patriotism" take on a negative moral connotation, because that's your bias - you tend not to like people who like the concept. Even as you admit you feel it yourself for your own home country, while struggling to re-word it. I'm just trying to be a realist about the concept. We all feel it, unless we're culturally suicidal. (As many on the left are. Recall Mrs Obama saying she had never been proud of her country until she was voted in as First Lady by her country's electorate.)