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The New Coffee Room

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  3. Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction

Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction

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  • AxtremusA Axtremus

    @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

    And if somebody is that drunk, how do they know what they agreed or did not agree to?

    Let's extended this a little bit ... you got drunk and after you sober up you found that $20 is missing from your wallet. Was it theft? Would you make an argument that says "how do they know whether they agreed or did not agree to (give the money away)"?

    JollyJ Offline
    JollyJ Offline
    Jolly
    wrote on last edited by
    #6

    @axtremus said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

    @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

    And if somebody is that drunk, how do they know what they agreed or did not agree to?

    Let's extended this a little bit ... you got drunk and after you sober up you found that $20 is missing from your wallet. Was it theft? Would you make an argument that says "how do they know whether they agreed or did not agree to (give the money away)"?

    Back in the dim mists of time, when dinosaurs roamed the earth, if you got blitzed so bad you woke up screwed, blued and tatooed, you chalked it up to a hard earned education on your part. And you never put yourself in that situation again.

    “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

    Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

    1 Reply Last reply
    • JollyJ Jolly

      @89th said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

      @axtremus said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

      @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

      And if somebody is that drunk, how do they know what they agreed or did not agree to?

      Let's extended this a little bit ... you got drunk and after you sober up you found that $20 is missing from your wallet. Was it theft? Would you make an argument that says "how do they know whether they agreed or did not agree to (give the money away)"?

      If it was @Aqua-Letifer or me in college, strong odds we used the $20 on a 3am IHOP or SHEETZ run.

      Understand the logic, just don't know what a SHEETZ run is....

      89th8 Offline
      89th8 Offline
      89th
      wrote on last edited by
      #7

      @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

      @89th said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

      @axtremus said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

      @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

      And if somebody is that drunk, how do they know what they agreed or did not agree to?

      Let's extended this a little bit ... you got drunk and after you sober up you found that $20 is missing from your wallet. Was it theft? Would you make an argument that says "how do they know whether they agreed or did not agree to (give the money away)"?

      If it was @Aqua-Letifer or me in college, strong odds we used the $20 on a 3am IHOP or SHEETZ run.

      Understand the logic, just don't know what a SHEETZ run is....

      Sheetz is like Wawa, but better. Mostly in Pennsylvania and nearby states.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • Catseye3C Offline
        Catseye3C Offline
        Catseye3
        wrote on last edited by
        #8

        A man who has sex with a passed-out woman needs a beatdown. A man with character and decency would never do such a thing.

        Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

        brendaB JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
        • Catseye3C Catseye3

          A man who has sex with a passed-out woman needs a beatdown. A man with character and decency would never do such a thing.

          brendaB Offline
          brendaB Offline
          brenda
          wrote on last edited by
          #9

          @catseye3 said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

          A man who has sex with a passed-out woman needs a beatdown. A man with character and decency would never do such a thing.

          +1
          If that's what he wants, he should go buy an inflatable doll.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • Catseye3C Catseye3

            A man who has sex with a passed-out woman needs a beatdown. A man with character and decency would never do such a thing.

            JollyJ Offline
            JollyJ Offline
            Jolly
            wrote on last edited by
            #10

            @catseye3 What does it say about the woman?

            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

            Catseye3C brendaB 2 Replies Last reply
            • JollyJ Jolly

              @catseye3 What does it say about the woman?

              Catseye3C Offline
              Catseye3C Offline
              Catseye3
              wrote on last edited by
              #11

              @jolly Poor judgment.

              Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

              JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
              • JollyJ Jolly

                @catseye3 What does it say about the woman?

                brendaB Offline
                brendaB Offline
                brenda
                wrote on last edited by
                #12

                @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                @catseye3 What does it say about the woman?

                It could say things like

                • she's inexperienced with alcohol and didn't realize how it would affect her.
                • she didn't know how much alcohol had been put in her drinks.
                • she didn't know the medication she was taking affected how much alcohol she could handle.
                • she thought the guy was a trustworthy and honorable person.
                1 Reply Last reply
                • Catseye3C Catseye3

                  @jolly Poor judgment.

                  JollyJ Offline
                  JollyJ Offline
                  Jolly
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #13

                  @catseye3 said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                  @jolly Poor judgment.

                  Absolutely.

                  You know, when working with patients in sometimes some pretty tense situations, the first thing I learned was that people lie. Sometimes, a lot.

                  In the case of rape, the lab kept the rape box and was charged with legal chain of custody with all specimens. I've done a crapload of them. Because of that, you knew the results and would often follow the legal proceedings. Rape is a serious charge, with serious consequences...Forcible rape can land you in Angola for 40 years down here, simple rape for 25.

                  Simple justice demands a DA uses due diligence and good evidence before putting someone away for hard time like that. Sometimes, we saw familiar names go down the river for lengthy sentences. But sometimes, the accused won in court. And many times, a case never went to court, either because the prosecutors felt the sex was consensual or that the evidence simply could not support the charges.

                  A man (or a woman) can be an absolute cad, without a shred of decency or character. But I don't sentence people to The Farm for 25 years for character flaws on a he said/she said argument.

                  As a practical matter, don't put yourself in bad situations and bad things generally don't happen. That's pretty much the advice I gave my kids, not that they always followed it.

                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins Dad
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #14

                    Are there different criminal levels of rape? A guy taking advantage of a drunk girl is not the same as a guy hiding behind bushes and dragging joggers down to the creek...

                    There are different levels with the whole drunk girl scenario. too. Anything from a sober guy taking advantage of an unconscious girl on one end of the spectrum to two drunk kids having sex and the girl regretting it the next morning on the other end...

                    The Brad

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • George KG Offline
                      George KG Offline
                      George K
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #15

                      Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting chapter on the "drunk rape" phenomenon.

                      People can become so blindingly drunk that they have no recollection of anything happening, even though they appear to be functioning pretty normally.

                      https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/alcohol-malcolm-gladwell?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

                      n his new book, Talking to Strangers, Malcolm Gladwell uses the infamous Brock Turner incident as a case study in alcoholism and behavior. A brief recap: Turner, drunk, meets the anonymously-named Emily Doe, also drunk (and also, since the publication of Gladwell's book, no longer anonymous). They dance, they walk, they stumble, he sexually assaults the unconscious undergrad, then later blames the alcohol.

                      During the hearings, in fact, alcohol seemed to be the culprit of everything that went wrong, from Chanel Miller's blackout (it was the culprit) to Turner's masculine aggression (it wasn't). Alcohol is often invoked as the true villain in such circumstances, the insidious agent causing mayhem inside the mind of the attacker. Remove alcohol from the situation and a saint appears — or so the argument goes.

                      Is that really the case? It's true that alcohol changes you — literally. Your conception of "self" is transformed. After saying hello to your frontal lobes, the brain region that governs, among other things, motivation and attention, alcohol moseys over to the amygdala, the switchboard operator of your fight-flight-freeze mechanism. Turning it down a notch, you become disinhibited; the very conception of "I" must be reconsidered.>

                      Eventually, inevitably, alcohol — too much of it, anyway — seeps into your cerebellum. Balance and coordination are coopted. Finally, if you keep drinking, alcohol makes a final visit to your hippocampus, the brain region responsible for memories. Once you hit .08, your hippocampi (they're a pair) struggle to keep up. A bit more and your brain will never imprint the experience. "You," no longer in any sense the you you recognize, are no longer checked in.

                      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

                      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

                      89th8 JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                      • George KG George K

                        Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting chapter on the "drunk rape" phenomenon.

                        People can become so blindingly drunk that they have no recollection of anything happening, even though they appear to be functioning pretty normally.

                        https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/alcohol-malcolm-gladwell?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

                        n his new book, Talking to Strangers, Malcolm Gladwell uses the infamous Brock Turner incident as a case study in alcoholism and behavior. A brief recap: Turner, drunk, meets the anonymously-named Emily Doe, also drunk (and also, since the publication of Gladwell's book, no longer anonymous). They dance, they walk, they stumble, he sexually assaults the unconscious undergrad, then later blames the alcohol.

                        During the hearings, in fact, alcohol seemed to be the culprit of everything that went wrong, from Chanel Miller's blackout (it was the culprit) to Turner's masculine aggression (it wasn't). Alcohol is often invoked as the true villain in such circumstances, the insidious agent causing mayhem inside the mind of the attacker. Remove alcohol from the situation and a saint appears — or so the argument goes.

                        Is that really the case? It's true that alcohol changes you — literally. Your conception of "self" is transformed. After saying hello to your frontal lobes, the brain region that governs, among other things, motivation and attention, alcohol moseys over to the amygdala, the switchboard operator of your fight-flight-freeze mechanism. Turning it down a notch, you become disinhibited; the very conception of "I" must be reconsidered.>

                        Eventually, inevitably, alcohol — too much of it, anyway — seeps into your cerebellum. Balance and coordination are coopted. Finally, if you keep drinking, alcohol makes a final visit to your hippocampus, the brain region responsible for memories. Once you hit .08, your hippocampi (they're a pair) struggle to keep up. A bit more and your brain will never imprint the experience. "You," no longer in any sense the you you recognize, are no longer checked in.

                        89th8 Offline
                        89th8 Offline
                        89th
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #16

                        @george-k said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                        People can become so blindingly drunk that they have no recollection of anything happening, even though they appear to be functioning pretty normally.

                        I call that Friday Night at TNCR

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • George KG George K

                          Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting chapter on the "drunk rape" phenomenon.

                          People can become so blindingly drunk that they have no recollection of anything happening, even though they appear to be functioning pretty normally.

                          https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/alcohol-malcolm-gladwell?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

                          n his new book, Talking to Strangers, Malcolm Gladwell uses the infamous Brock Turner incident as a case study in alcoholism and behavior. A brief recap: Turner, drunk, meets the anonymously-named Emily Doe, also drunk (and also, since the publication of Gladwell's book, no longer anonymous). They dance, they walk, they stumble, he sexually assaults the unconscious undergrad, then later blames the alcohol.

                          During the hearings, in fact, alcohol seemed to be the culprit of everything that went wrong, from Chanel Miller's blackout (it was the culprit) to Turner's masculine aggression (it wasn't). Alcohol is often invoked as the true villain in such circumstances, the insidious agent causing mayhem inside the mind of the attacker. Remove alcohol from the situation and a saint appears — or so the argument goes.

                          Is that really the case? It's true that alcohol changes you — literally. Your conception of "self" is transformed. After saying hello to your frontal lobes, the brain region that governs, among other things, motivation and attention, alcohol moseys over to the amygdala, the switchboard operator of your fight-flight-freeze mechanism. Turning it down a notch, you become disinhibited; the very conception of "I" must be reconsidered.>

                          Eventually, inevitably, alcohol — too much of it, anyway — seeps into your cerebellum. Balance and coordination are coopted. Finally, if you keep drinking, alcohol makes a final visit to your hippocampus, the brain region responsible for memories. Once you hit .08, your hippocampi (they're a pair) struggle to keep up. A bit more and your brain will never imprint the experience. "You," no longer in any sense the you you recognize, are no longer checked in.

                          JollyJ Offline
                          JollyJ Offline
                          Jolly
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #17

                          @george-k said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                          Malcolm Gladwell has an interesting chapter on the "drunk rape" phenomenon.

                          People can become so blindingly drunk that they have no recollection of anything happening, even though they appear to be functioning pretty normally.

                          https://bigthink.com/surprising-science/alcohol-malcolm-gladwell?rebelltitem=1#rebelltitem1

                          n his new book, Talking to Strangers, Malcolm Gladwell uses the infamous Brock Turner incident as a case study in alcoholism and behavior. A brief recap: Turner, drunk, meets the anonymously-named Emily Doe, also drunk (and also, since the publication of Gladwell's book, no longer anonymous). They dance, they walk, they stumble, he sexually assaults the unconscious undergrad, then later blames the alcohol.

                          During the hearings, in fact, alcohol seemed to be the culprit of everything that went wrong, from Chanel Miller's blackout (it was the culprit) to Turner's masculine aggression (it wasn't). Alcohol is often invoked as the true villain in such circumstances, the insidious agent causing mayhem inside the mind of the attacker. Remove alcohol from the situation and a saint appears — or so the argument goes.

                          Is that really the case? It's true that alcohol changes you — literally. Your conception of "self" is transformed. After saying hello to your frontal lobes, the brain region that governs, among other things, motivation and attention, alcohol moseys over to the amygdala, the switchboard operator of your fight-flight-freeze mechanism. Turning it down a notch, you become disinhibited; the very conception of "I" must be reconsidered.>

                          Eventually, inevitably, alcohol — too much of it, anyway — seeps into your cerebellum. Balance and coordination are coopted. Finally, if you keep drinking, alcohol makes a final visit to your hippocampus, the brain region responsible for memories. Once you hit .08, your hippocampi (they're a pair) struggle to keep up. A bit more and your brain will never imprint the experience. "You," no longer in any sense the you you recognize, are no longer checked in.

                          In the case of the original article, it was established that the female had five shots of vodka before the accused approached her. He later took her home and she left willingly with him.

                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                            Doctor PhibesD Offline
                            Doctor Phibes
                            wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                            #18

                            It's not the woman committing the crime.

                            She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                            The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                            If he throws her in the river and she drowns, is anybody going to seriously claim that he's innocent of murder?

                            I was only joking

                            JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                            • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                              It's not the woman committing the crime.

                              She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                              The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                              If he throws her in the river and she drowns, is anybody going to seriously claim that he's innocent of murder?

                              JollyJ Offline
                              JollyJ Offline
                              Jolly
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #19

                              @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                              It's not the woman committing the crime.

                              She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                              The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                              So, you'd put the guy away for 25 years?

                              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                              Doctor PhibesD 1 Reply Last reply
                              • JollyJ Jolly

                                @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                It's not the woman committing the crime.

                                She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                                The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                                So, you'd put the guy away for 25 years?

                                Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                Doctor Phibes
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #20

                                @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                It's not the woman committing the crime.

                                She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                                The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                                So, you'd put the guy away for 25 years?

                                I didn't say that. No, I don't think I would.

                                I'd put him away for 25 years if he threw her in the river.

                                I was only joking

                                89th8 JollyJ 2 Replies Last reply
                                • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                                  @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                  @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                  It's not the woman committing the crime.

                                  She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                                  The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                                  So, you'd put the guy away for 25 years?

                                  I didn't say that. No, I don't think I would.

                                  I'd put him away for 25 years if he threw her in the river.

                                  89th8 Offline
                                  89th8 Offline
                                  89th
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #21

                                  @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                  I'd put him away for 25 years if he threw her in the river.

                                  Yeah but what if she was on fire?

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                    Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                    Doctor Phibes
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #22

                                    Take another hypothetical - if he found a stranger drunk in a shop doorway and raped her, then yes, that's 25 years.

                                    I was only joking

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • Doctor PhibesD Doctor Phibes

                                      @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                      @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                      It's not the woman committing the crime.

                                      She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                                      The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                                      So, you'd put the guy away for 25 years?

                                      I didn't say that. No, I don't think I would.

                                      I'd put him away for 25 years if he threw her in the river.

                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      JollyJ Offline
                                      Jolly
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #23

                                      @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                      @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                      @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                      It's not the woman committing the crime.

                                      She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                                      The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                                      So, you'd put the guy away for 25 years?

                                      I didn't say that. No, I don't think I would.

                                      I'd put him away for 25 years if he threw her in the river.

                                      See, that's the problem...She's so blitzed, often we have only his or her word that the sex was consensual, if there isn't some physical evidence of assault.

                                      And minor bruising and minor vaginal tears can occur in normal rough or vigorous sex.

                                      “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                      Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                                      Catseye3C 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                        Doctor PhibesD Offline
                                        Doctor Phibes
                                        wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                                        #24

                                        If you can't prove the rape, then you can't prove it. That's not the same as saying it's not rape if she's drunk.

                                        I was only joking

                                        L 1 Reply Last reply
                                        • JollyJ Jolly

                                          @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                          @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                          @doctor-phibes said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                          It's not the woman committing the crime.

                                          She's drunk. That's not a crime, and it's something most of us have done.

                                          The man is the one committing the sexual assault. Saying it isn't rape solely because she's drunk is ridiculous.

                                          So, you'd put the guy away for 25 years?

                                          I didn't say that. No, I don't think I would.

                                          I'd put him away for 25 years if he threw her in the river.

                                          See, that's the problem...She's so blitzed, often we have only his or her word that the sex was consensual, if there isn't some physical evidence of assault.

                                          And minor bruising and minor vaginal tears can occur in normal rough or vigorous sex.

                                          Catseye3C Offline
                                          Catseye3C Offline
                                          Catseye3
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #25

                                          @jolly said in Minnesota Supreme Court Overturned Rape Conviction:

                                          She's so blitzed, often we have only his or her word that the sex was consensual, if there isn't some physical evidence of assault.

                                          Then the suit gets dismissed, and everybody goes home, sadder but wiser.

                                          Not everything is fixable.

                                          Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

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