Electric car game changer

[Doctor Phibes]

@copper said in Electric car game changer:

https://www.quantumscape.com/

Enables <15 minute fast charge (0 to 80%) by eliminating lithium diffusion bottleneck in anode host material.

Since that's 3 times the charge time of the other one, this is already completely obsolete, and it hasn't even been released!

[Klaus]

@doctor-phibes said in Electric car game changer:

It seems to me like a lot is going to need to change for this to be achievable.

Google indicates a car battery capacity is roughly 50kWh, so to charge one in 5 minutes is going to need a charger capable of delivering 50 x 12 = 600 kW. For a battery voltage of 400V (again from Google), this correlates to 1500 Amps, which is a stupidly high current.

Or am I missing something obvious?

That's what I thought as well.

The most powerful charging stations over here charge with 200KW. They are extremely expensive and require enormous cooled cables.

Also, the influence on the stability of the overall power grid, bot locally and nationally, would presumably be quite significant if thousands of cars would suddenly begin charging at 600KW.

Finally, I wonder what a realistic cost for a kwh of energy would be from one of those super duper charging stations. From what I read, a fair non-subsidized price for a kwh at a high power charging station would be >1$ per kwh, so we can all guess how much that would be with a 600KW charging station. It is in any case orders of magnitude more expensive than gasoline.

I also wonder what the influence of the super-fast charging on the life time of the battery is. Usually, batteries are not happy about such things.

[LuFins Dad]

Dead end technology. You think oil isn’t renewable? Compare that to Lithium! We’re digging a hole faster and faster.

[George K]

A related story:

https://techxplore.com/news/2021-01-inexpensive-battery-rapidly-electric-vehicles.html

Range anxiety, the fear of running out of power before being able to recharge an electric vehicle, may be a thing of the past, according to a team of Penn State engineers who are looking at lithium iron phosphate batteries that have a range of 250 miles with the ability to charge in 10 minutes.

"We developed a pretty clever battery for mass-market electric vehicles with cost parity with combustion engine vehicles," said Chao-Yang Wang, William E. Diefenderfer Chair of mechanical engineering, professor of chemical engineering and professor of materials science and engineering, and director of the Electrochemical Engine Center at Penn State. "There is no more range anxiety and this battery is affordable."

The researchers also say that the battery should be good for 2 million miles in its lifetime.

They report today in Nature Energy that the key to long-life and rapid recharging is the battery's ability to quickly heat up to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, for charge and discharge, and then cool down when the battery is not working.

"The very fast charge allows us to downsize the battery without incurring range anxiety," said Wang.

The battery uses a self-heating approach previously developed in Wang's center. The self-heating battery uses a thin nickel foil with one end attached to the negative terminal and the other extending outside the cell to create a third terminal. Once electrons flow it rapidly heats up the nickel foil through resistance heating and warm the inside of the battery. Once the battery's internal temperature is 140 degrees F, the switch opens and the battery is ready for rapid charge or discharge.

Wang's team modeled this battery using existing technologies and innovative approaches. They suggest that using this self-heating method, they can use low-cost materials for the battery's cathode and anode and a safe, low-voltage electrolyte. The cathode is thermally stable, lithium iron phosphate, which does not contain any of the expensive and critical materials like cobalt. The anode is made of very large particle graphite, a safe, light and inexpensive material.

Because of the self-heating, the researchers said they do not have to worry about uneven deposition of lithium on the anode, which can cause lithium spikes that are dangerous.

"This battery has reduced weight, volume and cost," said Wang. "I am very happy that we finally found a battery that will benefit the mainstream consumer mass market."

According to Wang, these smaller batteries can produce a large amount of power upon heating—40 kilowatt hours and 300 kilowatts of power. An electric vehicle with this battery could go from zero to 60 miles per hour in 3 seconds and would drive like a Porsche, he said.

[89th]

Ugh, call me when it's wireless charging.

[George K]

POTUS "Car Guy" touts electric cars.

I had no idea there was an electric Corvette.

[89th]

Serious question, when was the last time you think he drove anywhere? I bet it's been at least 5 or 10 years.

[Mik]

Yeah. He takes the train.

[George K]

@Mik said in Electric car game changer:

Yeah. He takes the train.

Not any more. He flew on AF1 to Delaware to vote.

[taiwan_girl]

@89th said in Electric car game changer:

Serious question, when was the last time you think he drove anywhere? I bet it's been at least 5 or 10 years.

Couple of weeks it appears.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-26/biden-drives-his-corvette-for-episode-of-jay-leno-s-garage

Of course, I am sure it was a "closed course" etc But, it wouldn't be a smart idea to have the President of the US driving around in public. LOL

Kind of like the questions I asked about the queen also would apply to the president - last time they actually handled money? Last time they waited in line? etc

[Doctor Phibes]

You'd think we'd have heard something more about the '5 minute re-charge' - it's been about 20 months. I'm a little surprised they haven't got it down to like 20 minutes at this point - it's not long until 2023, after all.

My prediction - Star Citizen will be finished before this is in place.

[Aqua Letifer]

@taiwan_girl said in Electric car game changer:

@89th said in Electric car game changer:

Serious question, when was the last time you think he drove anywhere? I bet it's been at least 5 or 10 years.

Couple of weeks it appears.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-26/biden-drives-his-corvette-for-episode-of-jay-leno-s-garage

Of course, I am sure it was a "closed course" etc But, it wouldn't be a smart idea to have the President of the US driving around in public. LOL

Kind of like the questions I asked about the queen also would apply to the president - last time they actually handled money? Last time they waited in line? etc

[boomer]
He drove the economy into a recession, drove gas prices up and drove us all crazy so I'd say he's doing quite a lot.

Hey-ohhhhhhhh.
[/boomer]

[LuFins Dad]

@taiwan_girl said in Electric car game changer:

@89th said in Electric car game changer:

Serious question, when was the last time you think he drove anywhere? I bet it's been at least 5 or 10 years.

Couple of weeks it appears.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-08-26/biden-drives-his-corvette-for-episode-of-jay-leno-s-garage

Of course, I am sure it was a "closed course" etc But, it wouldn't be a smart idea to have the President of the US driving around in public. LOL

Kind of like the questions I asked about the queen also would apply to the president - last time they actually handled money? Last time they waited in line? etc

I can see Joe more behind the wheel of a Trans Am T-Top, but a Vette guy would be a close second…

[George K]

@LuFins-Dad said in Electric car game changer:

I can see Joe more behind the wheel of a Trans Am T-Top

And there it is: A nice slow pitch, right over home plate....

[Horace]

@George-K said in Electric car game changer:

@LuFins-Dad said in Electric car game changer:

I can see Joe more behind the wheel of a Trans Am T-Top

And there it is a nice slow pitch, right over home plate....

Joe is a Trans vette-ite?

[LuFins Dad]

@Horace said in Electric car game changer:

@George-K said in Electric car game changer:

@LuFins-Dad said in Electric car game changer:

I can see Joe more behind the wheel of a Trans Am T-Top

And there it is a nice slow pitch, right over home plate....

Joe is a Trans vette-ite?

:spittake: You owe me a semi-expensive rye…

[taiwan_girl]

Link to video

[Klaus]

@Doctor-Phibes said in Electric car game changer:

It seems to me like a lot is going to need to change for this to be achievable.

Google indicates a car battery capacity is roughly 50kWh, so to charge one in 5 minutes is going to need a charger capable of delivering 50 x 12 = 600 kW. For a battery voltage of 400V (again from Google), this correlates to 1500 Amps, which is a stupidly high current.

Or am I missing something obvious?

First of all, the article says the 5min is for 100 miles, not to make the battery full. Big difference.

Secondly, maybe they charge at much higher voltages? Many modern EV charge at 800V. Maybe this one does the same at 3000V or something?

I agree with you that 1500A would be insane and probably not feasible, unless you introduce something like cooling to almost 0K or the like.

The thing that worries me more is the power grid. I doubt it can handle such extreme punctual loads very well. Imagine rush hour and suddenly 30 cars on one parking place want to charge simultaneously. You'd need a power plant besides the parking place.

[Klaus]

Let's say you want to charge 30 KWH in 5min, which might be something like 100 mile range.

That would mean they'd need to charge with 360KW. Assuming a charging park with 30 spots, they'd need 1.21Jiga10 Megawatts of power. That is a lot. I think a typical big coal or nuclear power plant produces something like 500 MW. So, 50 charger parks like that would require one nuclear power plant.

[Doctor Phibes]

@Klaus said in Electric car game changer:

Maybe this one does the same at 3000V or something?

The general public and 3000V don't mix. Particularly outside on a wet Sunday afternoon.