Trump himself consents to transition
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So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
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Are you talking to me? I would definitely have had a problem with it had it succeeded. I would have been upset had it been backed by the Democratic establishment.
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wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:07 last edited by
If you have an issue with my word “left” I’m happy to rephrase as TDS sufferer. That’s more to the point anyway.
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wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:09 last edited by
I think your attempt to present this as a Democratic establishment effort to deny him the presidency falls flat.
This was a stunt organized by a huffpo columnist and a handful of actors. Nothing at all comparable to the current moment.
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wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:11 last edited by
I would suggest we go back to 2016/17 on the old board to see how much attention we gave it. That is a reasonable proxy for how big a threat to democratic order this really was.
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So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:11 last edited by@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
When you give people in the process agency (electors) you have to be realistic about how much impact they can actually have.
If this were a super close election - and 1-2 electoral votes mattered, and there were faithless electors from states that could actually award partial electoral college vot
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@jon-nyc that was for xenon. For you, I would ask what the point of the wiki link is?
If it actually mattered? (As in the electoral votes were close, and faithless electors were from a state that could actually cast partial ballots, etc.)
Then that’d be horrible. But I also think that the electoral college is antiquated - so I’d think this was doubly horrible.
The thing is - this had very little practical effect and no serious person backed this (I’d be surprised if a candidate assumed office with a “faithless” vote in their favor).
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
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I think your attempt to present this as a Democratic establishment effort to deny him the presidency falls flat.
This was a stunt organized by a huffpo columnist and a handful of actors. Nothing at all comparable to the current moment.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:11 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Trump himself consents to transition:
I think your attempt to present this as a Democratic establishment effort to deny him the presidency falls flat.
This was a stunt organized by a huffpo columnist and a handful of actors. Nothing at all comparable to the current moment.
Yes everything that aligns with your Trump hatred is an important fundamental threat to democracy and everything about Trump hatred is some combination of an overblown stunt and righteous political action. Witness your reaction to the NYT op ed and subsequent book.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
When you give people in the process agency (electors) you have to be realistic about how much impact they can actually have.
If this were a super close election - and 1-2 electoral votes mattered, and there were faithless electors from states that could actually award partial electoral college vot
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@jon-nyc that was for xenon. For you, I would ask what the point of the wiki link is?
If it actually mattered? (As in the electoral votes were close, and faithless electors were from a state that could actually cast partial ballots, etc.)
Then that’d be horrible. But I also think that the electoral college is antiquated - so I’d think this was doubly horrible.
The thing is - this had very little practical effect and no serious person backed this (I’d be surprised if a candidate assumed office with a “faithless” vote in their favor).
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:18 last edited by@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
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I would suggest we go back to 2016/17 on the old board to see how much attention we gave it. That is a reasonable proxy for how big a threat to democratic order this really was.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:19 last edited by@jon-nyc said in Trump himself consents to transition:
I would suggest we go back to 2016/17 on the old board to see how much attention we gave it. That is a reasonable proxy for how big a threat to democratic order this really was.
This was the one thread we had on it. You genuinely expressed concern. I skipped it altogether.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/the_new_coffee_room/faithless-elector-t100715.html
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:20 last edited by@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
It’s not different
You squint a bit and you can’t even tell the efforts apart. Like Star Wars movies.
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:23 last edited by@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:28 last edited by@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:33 last edited by@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 18:46 last edited by Horace@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 19:08 last edited by xenon@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
I think it is a matter of degrees. Voter fraud is a real issue - Trump has amped it up into something much more sinister.
The existence of faithless electors is not a good thing - but they didn’t pose much of a threat to the republic in their last incarnation.
That said - I don’t thunk Trump’s rants amount to an existential threat to the republic either. He tried though. Maybe if he and his lawyers were more competent, they coulda made an attempt that was a notch higher than laughable.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
I think it is a matter of degrees. Voter fraud is a real issue - Trump has amped it up into something much more sinister.
The existence of faithless electors is not a good thing - but they didn’t pose much of a threat to the republic in their last incarnation.
That said - I don’t thunk Trump’s rants amount to an existential threat to the republic either. He tried though. Maybe if he and his lawyers were more competent, they coulda made an attempt that was a notch higher than laughable.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 19:10 last edited by@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 19:13 last edited by Loki@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
Democracy is so strong in this country that literally nobody cares what Trump is doing except those that don’t know how to have a conversation without Trump in it.
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@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 19:14 last edited by xenon@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
No - the legacy of the faithless electors will be a historical curiosity. The legacy of Trump’s election fraud nonsense will be a significant portion of the electorate trusting election results much less.
He won’t turn over the presidency, but the effect of that loss of trust is TBD
As I said, matter of degrees. It’s not binary. (Effect or no practical effect. )
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
No - the legacy of the faithless electors will be a historical curiosity. The legacy of Trump’s election fraud nonsense will be a significant portion of the electorate trusting election results much less.
He won’t turn over the presidency, but the effect of that loss of trust is TBD
As I said, matter of degrees. It’s not binary. (Effect or no practical effect. )
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 19:22 last edited by@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
No - the legacy of the faithless electors will be a historical curiosity. The legacy of Trump’s election fraud nonsense will be a significant portion of the electorate trusting election results much less.
He won’t turn over the presidency, but the effect of that loss of trust is TBD
As I said, matter of degrees. It’s not binary. (Effect or no practical effect. )
Your first paragraph would have been a more coherent response to my question if the first word was “yes” rather than “no”.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
No - the legacy of the faithless electors will be a historical curiosity. The legacy of Trump’s election fraud nonsense will be a significant portion of the electorate trusting election results much less.
He won’t turn over the presidency, but the effect of that loss of trust is TBD
As I said, matter of degrees. It’s not binary. (Effect or no practical effect. )
wrote on 23 Dec 2020, 19:24 last edited by Loki@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
No - the legacy of the faithless electors will be a historical curiosity. The legacy of Trump’s election fraud nonsense will be a significant portion of the electorate trusting election results much less.
He won’t turn over the presidency, but the effect of that loss of trust is TBD
As I said, matter of degrees. It’s not binary. (Effect or no practical effect. )
But actually it’s the 50 different ways you can vote that is the issue and all the states jerking all the rules. If people can return to vote in person on the one day that matters and not months before that would be great. Wait that’s too hard for people.