Trump himself consents to transition
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I read up in this a bit. Most states have a mechanism to force a faithless elector to change their vote. Only a few have no proscribed action for a faithless elector.
A faithless elector is something that states can pretty much legislate out of existence (and most have - it just remains a symbolic thing).
But it feels different than saying that the election itself is a fraud. To allow the existence of faithless electors is in someway a deliberate choice by states.
Voter fraud is a different beast. It’s a subversion of the rules themselves. Feels like a beast you don’t want to feed.
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@xenon no commentary on the attempt to establish a coalition of faithlessness by powers on the left who hated Trump?
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon no commentary on the attempt to establish a coalition of faithlessness by powers on the left who hated Trump?
Well - that’s a matter of political philosophy.
The US system has a bunch of “undemocratic” ethos built into it.
The founders did not like direct democracy. The senate started as an appointed, not elected body.
Having people in the process who “know better” was part of the design.
The electoral college itself is a “hybrid” democratic institution. Skews pretty “representative” to the side of representative democracy.
Not necessarily a subversion from that lens.
FWIW - I don’t think pure democracy is necessarily a good thing.
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@xenon no commentary on the attempt to establish a coalition of faithlessness by powers on the left who hated Trump?
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
by powers on the left
Wikipedia:
The faithless electors who opposed Donald Trump were part of a movement dubbed the Hamilton Electors co-founded by Micheal Baca of Colorado and Bret Chiafalo of Washington.
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So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
Education is extremely important.
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So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
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Are you talking to me? I would definitely have had a problem with it had it succeeded. I would have been upset had it been backed by the Democratic establishment.
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I think your attempt to present this as a Democratic establishment effort to deny him the presidency falls flat.
This was a stunt organized by a huffpo columnist and a handful of actors. Nothing at all comparable to the current moment.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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I would suggest we go back to 2016/17 on the old board to see how much attention we gave it. That is a reasonable proxy for how big a threat to democratic order this really was.
Only non-witches get due process.
- Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
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So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
When you give people in the process agency (electors) you have to be realistic about how much impact they can actually have.
If this were a super close election - and 1-2 electoral votes mattered, and there were faithless electors from states that could actually award partial electoral college vot
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@jon-nyc that was for xenon. For you, I would ask what the point of the wiki link is?
If it actually mattered? (As in the electoral votes were close, and faithless electors were from a state that could actually cast partial ballots, etc.)
Then that’d be horrible. But I also think that the electoral college is antiquated - so I’d think this was doubly horrible.
The thing is - this had very little practical effect and no serious person backed this (I’d be surprised if a candidate assumed office with a “faithless” vote in their favor).
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
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I think your attempt to present this as a Democratic establishment effort to deny him the presidency falls flat.
This was a stunt organized by a huffpo columnist and a handful of actors. Nothing at all comparable to the current moment.
@jon-nyc said in Trump himself consents to transition:
I think your attempt to present this as a Democratic establishment effort to deny him the presidency falls flat.
This was a stunt organized by a huffpo columnist and a handful of actors. Nothing at all comparable to the current moment.
Yes everything that aligns with your Trump hatred is an important fundamental threat to democracy and everything about Trump hatred is some combination of an overblown stunt and righteous political action. Witness your reaction to the NYT op ed and subsequent book.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
So you would have had no political issue with it had the scheme succeeded? No feeling that political norms had been violated?
When you give people in the process agency (electors) you have to be realistic about how much impact they can actually have.
If this were a super close election - and 1-2 electoral votes mattered, and there were faithless electors from states that could actually award partial electoral college vot
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@jon-nyc that was for xenon. For you, I would ask what the point of the wiki link is?
If it actually mattered? (As in the electoral votes were close, and faithless electors were from a state that could actually cast partial ballots, etc.)
Then that’d be horrible. But I also think that the electoral college is antiquated - so I’d think this was doubly horrible.
The thing is - this had very little practical effect and no serious person backed this (I’d be surprised if a candidate assumed office with a “faithless” vote in their favor).
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
Education is extremely important.
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I would suggest we go back to 2016/17 on the old board to see how much attention we gave it. That is a reasonable proxy for how big a threat to democratic order this really was.
@jon-nyc said in Trump himself consents to transition:
I would suggest we go back to 2016/17 on the old board to see how much attention we gave it. That is a reasonable proxy for how big a threat to democratic order this really was.
This was the one thread we had on it. You genuinely expressed concern. I skipped it altogether.
https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/the_new_coffee_room/faithless-elector-t100715.html
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
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@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
I think it is a matter of degrees. Voter fraud is a real issue - Trump has amped it up into something much more sinister.
The existence of faithless electors is not a good thing - but they didn’t pose much of a threat to the republic in their last incarnation.
That said - I don’t thunk Trump’s rants amount to an existential threat to the republic either. He tried though. Maybe if he and his lawyers were more competent, they coulda made an attempt that was a notch higher than laughable.
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@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@horace said in Trump himself consents to transition:
@xenon said in Trump himself consents to transition:
Trump is different. He wants to change the results based on bullshit and 10’s of millions of people agree with him and believe the bullshit.
10s of millions of people would have rejoiced had the faithless electors succeeded. I figure they had as much of a chance as Trump does with his hopes of overturning the results. It’s not different.
If that happened, and 10’s of millions of people were on board - then we’d be in the same situation as right now.
I get it. Fucking around with faithfulness of electors is fine and dandy as long as it’s legal. Now name something Trump has done in his crusade that’s illegal.
I don’t think anything. He’s acting like a person with the intelligence of a teenager. He declared victory on election night while the votes were still being counted.
People trust voting less now than they would have before this. That’s bad. That’s a real effect.
Not everything that’s bad is illegal.
Right. I wish Trump would concede gracefully. And I wish TDS didn’t produce a brain chemistry capable off shrugging of faithless electors who happen to hate Trump.
I think it is a matter of degrees. Voter fraud is a real issue - Trump has amped it up into something much more sinister.
The existence of faithless electors is not a good thing - but they didn’t pose much of a threat to the republic in their last incarnation.
That said - I don’t thunk Trump’s rants amount to an existential threat to the republic either. He tried though. Maybe if he and his lawyers were more competent, they coulda made an attempt that was a notch higher than laughable.
@xenon so you’re just positing as an obvious truism that Trump’s complaints of voter fraud, which will prove ineffective, pose a meaningful threat to something or other, and more meaningful than electors screwing around with their faithfulness to their electorate?
