Can we at least end one narrative?
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ending it will not, most probably. But do you think the magnitude of it will be the same?
The problem is that it's not as political as you're making it out to be. Not for the people who are actually driving this.
You're right about the media's motivations for pumping out anti-Trump material. A couple of publications I work for now are lamenting the fact that anything they've published about Trump in the past four years, anything at all, performed orders of magnitude better than their traditional content. So they had to keep doing it. These publications are not political. One of them is about table-top gaming of all things.
But the media's not the biggest problem. America is now full of people who have completely defined themselves by the righteous struggle against hate, bigotry, xenophobia and racism. They're on the right side of things and they're going to be damned if they're going to let Trump and his evil followers continue to do their evil things. They've completely defined themselves by this perspective.
There was this female boxer who was the world champion in her division. She tried to kill herself immediately after she lost her first title fight. "But that's absurd," you might say, "she's still one of the best female boxers in the world, and definitely still one of the most successful of all time." The problem is that she defined herself as being the champion. When she lost that particular fight, she lost all sense of who she was.
That's the kind of shit we're dealing with here. If fighting evil is who you are, then you're always going to need a villain. If Trump's not around they'll just make one up. They already have, many times.
But.. is it really? How many people are truly dyed in the wool social justice warrior of the type you seem to refer to. Media amplifies extreme views thus we all get a very distorted picture of what the world is really like, is not likely that the number of people who are truly out of reach of any kind of cogent discourse is smaller than you think it is?
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
Lord, look at what just crawled out of the woodwork!
How you doin' Batty?
As for how Aqua might have voted...Thank God, there are a lot of Aquas in the U.S. Not as many as there should be, though. I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I think Aqua has a clear vision of how the end game turns out with our current events.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
But.. is it really? How many people are truly dyed in the wool social justice warrior of the type you seem to refer to.
Enough that this shit isn't just relegated to Facebook threads. It's affecting my life.
Four years ago, my then-company's HR department received a complaint about me, that I was making sexist decisions. The complaint stemmed from a team meeting I had with four women and they wanted to do something I thought was a bad idea, because it was going to piss a lot of people off. Ultimately it was my decision, so, HR complaint. Sexism. My boss got involved. I was fully supported in my judgment and nothing ever came of it, but it very easily could have gone another way. This is an important detail: the person who brought up the complaint wasn't even that much of an SJW. I worked with her fine. She just, y'know, was young and saw other people leverage HR that way, so she just thought that's what people did. Nevermind it threatened my career. It's just what people can do if they don't get their way, no big deal.
Last year, I had an HR complaint filed against me from a woman of an under-represented minority in which my gender and my height were used as evidence of my creating a threatening scenario. I was told I have to keep my gender and my height in mind when conversing with this person, and with others.
My boss at that job was in two separate meetings in which he was called a Nazi by some Very Important People. I don't mean being called a Nazi in passing, I mean a woman printed out WWII photos ahead of time and in a meeting, displayed the photos, and told him she was very aware that she knew he was a "kraut" and was responsible for the destruction of Poland.
Someone mentioned that that might be a little inappropriate. That's the reprimand she received. That's it.
I haven't been working with hardcore liberals. They seem like normal offices.
Sounds like you've had some pretty sucky experiences at work dude. But I'm not sure that your examples are indicative that a significant proportion of the US "have completely defined themselves by the righteous struggle against hate, bigotry, xenophobia and racism". The first case looks like people taking what they can get, the second a product of the overuse and hence cheapening of comparisons to historical atrocities.
I mean don't get me wrong I see that we should take the woke stuff seriously, it's pernicious bullshit. The attacks on freedom of thought and expression, the mob mentality inherent to cancel culture and the abandonment of the ideals of the enlightenment by those who cloak themselves in the mantle of the progressive movement are genuinely concerning. It's just that I suspect most people are pretty much going about their days. That the great tragedy is that we increasingly see each other as monsters, and are thus moved to support responses that are out of proportion.
It is true that I don't think your sample size allows you to conclude anything meaningful about the population at large but even if it is reflective of the attitudes and views of a large number of people. It doesn't mean they are unreachable. It means we must work harder at talking to one another, I do not mean to patronise and I really am interested in your perspective. When I discuss these kinds of issues over here I reference you in particular when I scold others for dismissing those who support Trump-exit as 'stupid/evil/etc.' Never the less I can't help thinking that taking solace in the rage of popularists may feel good but that in the long run it will just make things worse.
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@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Ending it will not, most probably. But do you think the magnitude of it will be the same?
The problem is that it's not as political as you're making it out to be. Not for the people who are actually driving this.
You're right about the media's motivations for pumping out anti-Trump material. A couple of publications I work for now are lamenting the fact that anything they've published about Trump in the past four years, anything at all, performed orders of magnitude better than their traditional content. So they had to keep doing it. These publications are not political. One of them is about table-top gaming of all things.
But the media's not the biggest problem. America is now full of people who have completely defined themselves by the righteous struggle against hate, bigotry, xenophobia and racism. They're on the right side of things and they're going to be damned if they're going to let Trump and his evil followers continue to do their evil things. They've completely defined themselves by this perspective.
There was this female boxer who was the world champion in her division. She tried to kill herself immediately after she lost her first title fight. "But that's absurd," you might say, "she's still one of the best female boxers in the world, and definitely still one of the most successful of all time." The problem is that she defined herself as being the champion. When she lost that particular fight, she lost all sense of who she was.
That's the kind of shit we're dealing with here. If fighting evil is who you are, then you're always going to need a villain. If Trump's not around they'll just make one up. They already have, many times.
But.. is it really? How many people are truly dyed in the wool social justice warrior of the type you seem to refer to. Media amplifies extreme views thus we all get a very distorted picture of what the world is really like, is not likely that the number of people who are truly out of reach of any kind of cogent discourse is smaller than you think it is?
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
Lord, look at what just crawled out of the woodwork!
How you doin' Batty?
As for how Aqua might have voted...Thank God, there are a lot of Aquas in the U.S. Not as many as there should be, though. I don't want to put words into his mouth, but I think Aqua has a clear vision of how the end game turns out with our current events.
Hey Jolly,
I can't complain. Actually, I can and frequently do (life, work, the weather you name it, I complain about it). Better to say perhaps that I shouldn't complain.
You know you were always my favourite crazy right-winger. I would definitely have a beer with you.
I confess to being relieved that it looks like the presidency will return to some semblance of political normality but I am dispirited by how close this election was/is. I hoped that the silent majority would make a definitive statement by rejecting the politics associated with the infant in chief. But that has not happened.
I suppose I hope that that result itself will manage to shock people on the left into some introspection. You American's hate each other too much. It's poisoning you all.
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Sounds like you've had some pretty sucky experiences at work dude. But I'm not sure that your examples are indicative that a significant proportion of the US "have completely defined themselves by the righteous struggle against hate, bigotry, xenophobia and racism". The first case looks like people taking what they can get, the second a product of the overuse and hence cheapening of comparisons to historical atrocities.
The radicals' behavior, and more specifically the general acceptance of their behavior, paves the way for the more pedestrian uses of social despotism. As I said, the folks I've worked with are far from radicals. But it's from liberal radicals that they got their ideas.
Never the less I can't help thinking that taking solace in the rage of popularists may feel good but that in the long run it will just make things worse.
Well, I'm not doing that, that's not really how I feel. I didn't feel good about the idea of pissing the liberals off and I'm not at all a Trump fan.
But today, it's not just my work experiences that are problematic. Being grateful for the existence of a police force means you hate blacks. Worrying about a white boy's self-esteem in school means you're an asshole who hates women and minorities. Believing Nick Sandmann isn't a racist means you're obviously one yourself. If you question the validity of university tribunals that don't follow the rule of law, well obviously you're just pro-rape.
SJW liberals reject the very concept of diversity of opinion, and you're wrong if you think the above sentiments haven't bled out into the mild-mannered majority. That's precisely where I'm hearing this shit from because as I said, I don't know that many militant liberals. From the family, friends, fellow nerd enthusiasts and professional contacts I converse with on social media, these opinions are unavoidable. Hell I stopped participating in a D&D group because I was tired of the DM virtue signaling to everyone that as a white male he has a lot to be sorry for just to keep his wife happy. It was disgusting. I'll stick with my irreverent assholes who smoke up too much, please.
Votes are allowed to be personal; it's your vote, after all. And Trump's douchebaggery is deplorable, but he hasn't created any credible threats to my friendships, family ties, and job prospects. If I voted for Trump, and word got out about that, liberals would absolutely be a threat to those things for me. So yeah, I'm officially diagnosing this as a fucking problem. I'm against the idea of people facing social, financial, or professional consequences for their political beliefs, and I care about that more than I do any one political platform. I'm for diversity of opinion, so I very much want there to be one even if I disagree with it.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
He knew how to manipulate the masses in such a way to convince certain phenotypes that he should be hated, and other phenotypes that he should be supported. Much more of what you feel to be his inferiority was/is an intentional act, and your emotional response is what was intended.
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@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
He knew how to manipulate the masses in such a way to convince certain phenotypes that he should be hated, and other phenotypes that he should be supported. Much more of what you feel to be his inferiority was/is an intentional act, and your emotional response is what was intended.
It's the exact same reason why in the age of unprecedented female empowerment, 50 Shades of Gray was literally the fastest-selling novel of all-time.
It's also why Fauci's credentials have absolutely nothing to do with his inflated popularity.
There was a void. To pick an arbitrary subset, conservative white males who live comfortably enough had absolutely no one who wanted to speak for them, and plenty who wanted to demonize them. Trump saw the opportunity.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
The radicals' behavior, and more specifically the general acceptance of their behavior, paves the way for the more pedestrian uses of social despotism. As I said, the folks I've worked with are far from radicals. But it's from liberal radicals that they got their ideas.
Outrage culture is bullshit, we should fight it.
@Aqua-Letifer said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
But today, it's not just my work experiences that are problematic. Being grateful for the existence of a police force means you hate blacks. Worrying about a white boy's self-esteem in school means you're an asshole who hates women and minorities. Believing Nick Sandmann isn't a racist means you're obviously one yourself. If you question the validity of university tribunals that don't follow the rule of law, well obviously you're just pro-rape.
SJW liberals reject the very concept of diversity of opinion, and you're wrong if you think the above sentiments haven't bled out into the mild-mannered majority. That's precisely where I'm hearing this shit from because as I said, I don't know that many militant liberals. From the family, friends, fellow nerd enthusiasts and professional contacts I converse with on social media, these opinions are unavoidable. Hell I stopped participating in a D&D group because I was tired of the DM virtue signaling to everyone that as a white male he has a lot to be sorry for just to keep his wife happy. It was disgusting. I'll stick with my irreverent assholes who smoke up too much, please.
I agree with what much of what you're saying, though I think there is a distinction between claiming on the one hand that there is a set of ill-liberal ideas that are a component of the current political zeitgeist, and that are having impact in the wider population - a claim I would agree with, and on the other your original claim that a significant chunk of the population are completely bound up in this SJW identity thing. A significant chunk are influenced but surely only a small set are true ideologues.
So yeah, I'm officially diagnosing this as a fucking problem. I'm against the idea of people facing social, financial, or professional consequences for their political beliefs, and I care about that more than I do any one political platform. I'm for diversity of opinion, so I very much want there to be one even if I disagree with it.
I agree completely. Though I don't understand why you think Trump would help this situation. He's just fuel for the fire. I rather like the fact that Biden is a rather boring politician.
For me, the focus should no longer be political views themselves. The battle of ideas should become secondary. The very idea of politics as the act of trying to convince people that some set of ideas regarding the running of a nation are manifestly better/worse than others should lose potency. We need more regulation/less regulation, we need more taxes less taxes, more public services less public services. X set of moral values and/or groups need provision of special protections/stripped of special protections. All this should be secondary now. Money, time and effort should go towards the restoration of political discourse. We should have microtargetted facebook adverts that are aimed at convicing people that others with different political views are not the enemy. We should employ an armada of anti-trolls crossing social and cultural divides to write comments espousing common humanity in youtube videos and in the comments to news articles.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I agree with what much of what you're saying, though I think there is a distinction between claiming on the one hand that there is a set of ill-liberal ideas that are a component of the current political zeitgeist, and that are having impact in the wider population - a claim I would agree with, and on the other your original claim that a significant chunk of the population are completely bound up in this SJW identity thing. A significant chunk are influenced but surely only a small set are true ideologues
No, people are not ideologues by nature. They are afraid of the power exerted by the ideology. America is terrified of being called racist. It has to end.
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@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
He knew how to manipulate the masses in such a way to convince certain phenotypes that he should be hated, and other phenotypes that he should be supported. Much more of what you feel to be his inferiority was/is an intentional act, and your emotional response is what was intended.
Dividing is powerful. The British convinced Muslims and Hindus to hate each other despite living together without conflict for generations. The act split a country apar,t caused terrible carnage and created two separate nuclear powers with missiles aimed squarely at each other's capitals.
@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I agree with what much of what you're saying, though I think there is a distinction between claiming on the one hand that there is a set of ill-liberal ideas that are a component of the current political zeitgeist, and that are having impact in the wider population - a claim I would agree with, and on the other your original claim that a significant chunk of the population are completely bound up in this SJW identity thing. A significant chunk are influenced but surely only a small set are true ideologues
No, people are not ideologues by nature. They are afraid of the power exerted by the ideology. America is terrified of being called racist. It has to end.
I mean... yeah but there is a flip side. Racism is not completely dead and more importantly has a terrible legacy. The Black population in America as a population never recovered. They have higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth, they are worse off by almost any metric. I can't speak for you, but I really am privileged and the circumstances defining the fortune of my birthright is not independent of the misfortune of those born into worse circumstances.
There really is enormous injustice in the social heritability of advantage. Your country is crazy because it's still so frightened of a fictious soviet threat that policies that would ameliorate social problems are rejected as 'socialism'. How much money is spent on incarceration? How little on the provision of the kinds of services and support networks that can help people step outside of poverty.
BLM, Extinction Rebellion, LGBDQTQ++ (I'm bad with acronyms) All these movements make a certain amount of sense, it's just that social movements aren't really reasonable or rational they are emotional outbursts and they are often championed by the ideologically blinded. But their causes should be appreciated regardless.
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No, racism isn't completely dead, whatever that even means. But I've chosen my side. The side that doesn't want to convince children born into their own lives that their skin color is super important to their prospects. You are free to choose your side of that, and I think you're smart enough to choose wisely.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
He knew how to manipulate the masses in such a way to convince certain phenotypes that he should be hated, and other phenotypes that he should be supported. Much more of what you feel to be his inferiority was/is an intentional act, and your emotional response is what was intended.
Dividing is powerful. The British convinced Muslims and Hindus to hate each other despite living together without conflict for generations. The act split a country apar,t caused terrible carnage and created two separate nuclear powers with missiles aimed squarely at each other's capitals.
@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I agree with what much of what you're saying, though I think there is a distinction between claiming on the one hand that there is a set of ill-liberal ideas that are a component of the current political zeitgeist, and that are having impact in the wider population - a claim I would agree with, and on the other your original claim that a significant chunk of the population are completely bound up in this SJW identity thing. A significant chunk are influenced but surely only a small set are true ideologues
No, people are not ideologues by nature. They are afraid of the power exerted by the ideology. America is terrified of being called racist. It has to end.
I mean... yeah but there is a flip side. Racism is not completely dead and more importantly has a terrible legacy. The Black population in America as a population never recovered. They have higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth, they are worse off by almost any metric. I can't speak for you, but I really am privileged and the circumstances defining the fortune of my birthright is not independent of the misfortune of those born into worse circumstances.
There really is enormous injustice in the social heritability of advantage. Your country is crazy because it's still so frightened of a fictious soviet threat that policies that would ameliorate social problems are rejected as 'socialism'. How much money is spent on incarceration? How little on the provision of the kinds of services and support networks that can help people step outside of poverty.
BLM, Extinction Rebellion, LGBDQTQ++ (I'm bad with acronyms) All these movements make a certain amount of sense, it's just that social movements aren't really reasonable or rational they are emotional outbursts and they are often championed by the ideologically blinded. But their causes should be appreciated regardless.
Want to see racism? Go to the Far East, where even people who look alike, hate each other.
The problem in the black community left racism behind a long time ago. The reason that the black community has higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth and are worse off by many metrics, is because Father's Day is the most confusing day of the year in most inner city black communities.
Racism does not make 77% of black mothers give birth to illegitimate children. Racism does not create a culture, where education is not valued and children are urged to act stupidly in class, in order to get a "crazy check". Racism does not make black women abort 27.1% of their babies (and Sanger smiled). Racism does not stand in the HR office and deny black applicants decent jobs...In fact, most businesses would fight over a well-qualified black applicant.
Opportunity is rampant in America for black people. they just need to take advantage of it.We as a society have bent over backwards to provide that opportunity, so much so, that many very bright and prosperous black people complain there is now a taint on their accomplishments...A perception they have become what they are through lowered standards and preference.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Though I don't understand why you think Trump would help this situation.
Trump doesn't help. Preventing the guys the militants can influence from presiding over the government does.
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@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
The problem in the black community left racism behind a long time ago. The reason that the black community has higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth and are worse off by many metrics, is because Father's Day is the most confusing day of the year in most inner city black communities.
Racism does not make 77% of black mothers give birth to illegitimate children. Racism does not create a culture, where education is not valued and children are urged to act stupidly in class, in order to get a "crazy check". Racism does not make black women abort 27.1% of their babies (and Sanger smiled). Racism does not stand in the HR office and deny black applicants decent jobs...In fact, most businesses would fight over a well-qualified black applicant.
Opportunity is rampant in America for black people. they just need to take advantage of it.We as a society have bent over backwards to provide that opportunity, so much so, that many very bright and prosperous black people complain there is now a taint on their accomplishments...A perception they have become what they are through lowered standards and preference.Culture is heritable, wealth is heritable, preference for education is heritable. These things don't come out of a vacuum. You cannot pretend that the culture of today is not a function of the environment of yesterday.
I tend to agree that social policies that focus primarily on quotas and explicit handouts are not likely to achieve much and that truly raising the standard of living of a population of people is a difficult thing. Never the less collectively America has failed spectacularly at this.
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I just got off the phone with my parents. They're retired. Earlier this week they went and took a walk at a state park, bought some hoagies for dinner, normal shit. They met their neighbors for bocce and other old people stuff.
My mom told me she is utterly terrified of Trump supporters. She's legit worried about a revolt. She and my dad both think there's a real chance Trump voters will start driving around assaulting people. They have second thoughts about leaving the house. They think it would be a good idea to start pre-emptively getting a list together of the local diehard Trump supporters on social media so that the police can keep an eye on them.
My parents aren't senile. They're normal Americans. I'm sorry, no, they got this shit from the media, social and mainstream, and it's a goddamn problem. If anyone wants to know how in the world Trump has so many supporters, this is exactly how. People are so tired of the left's horseshit they'll emphatically support any open opposition to their narrative.
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Thank you for explaining your perspective. I appreciate it.
Also - this has been fun! Nice to talk you all (or at least a small number of you) again.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
We should have microtargetted facebook adverts that are aimed at convicing people that others with different political views are not the enemy. We should employ an armada of anti-trolls crossing social and cultural divides to write comments espousing common humanity in youtube videos and in the comments to news articles.
I absolutely agree but there's no money in it. There's massive money to be made by ginning up controversy, though, so that's what we have.
Cracked is an internet footnote now precisely because it didn't get on the Trump content train. They completely admit this as a mistake. Meanwhile, CNN is hanging on because getting people terrified is a great way to keep them glued to the screen.
