Can we at least end one narrative?
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@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
He knew how to manipulate the masses in such a way to convince certain phenotypes that he should be hated, and other phenotypes that he should be supported. Much more of what you feel to be his inferiority was/is an intentional act, and your emotional response is what was intended.
Dividing is powerful. The British convinced Muslims and Hindus to hate each other despite living together without conflict for generations. The act split a country apar,t caused terrible carnage and created two separate nuclear powers with missiles aimed squarely at each other's capitals.
@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I agree with what much of what you're saying, though I think there is a distinction between claiming on the one hand that there is a set of ill-liberal ideas that are a component of the current political zeitgeist, and that are having impact in the wider population - a claim I would agree with, and on the other your original claim that a significant chunk of the population are completely bound up in this SJW identity thing. A significant chunk are influenced but surely only a small set are true ideologues
No, people are not ideologues by nature. They are afraid of the power exerted by the ideology. America is terrified of being called racist. It has to end.
I mean... yeah but there is a flip side. Racism is not completely dead and more importantly has a terrible legacy. The Black population in America as a population never recovered. They have higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth, they are worse off by almost any metric. I can't speak for you, but I really am privileged and the circumstances defining the fortune of my birthright is not independent of the misfortune of those born into worse circumstances.
There really is enormous injustice in the social heritability of advantage. Your country is crazy because it's still so frightened of a fictious soviet threat that policies that would ameliorate social problems are rejected as 'socialism'. How much money is spent on incarceration? How little on the provision of the kinds of services and support networks that can help people step outside of poverty.
BLM, Extinction Rebellion, LGBDQTQ++ (I'm bad with acronyms) All these movements make a certain amount of sense, it's just that social movements aren't really reasonable or rational they are emotional outbursts and they are often championed by the ideologically blinded. But their causes should be appreciated regardless.
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No, racism isn't completely dead, whatever that even means. But I've chosen my side. The side that doesn't want to convince children born into their own lives that their skin color is super important to their prospects. You are free to choose your side of that, and I think you're smart enough to choose wisely.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Having said that, the fact that you in particular considered (and perhaps voted) for someone so obviously awful has made me sit up and take notice.
He knew how to manipulate the masses in such a way to convince certain phenotypes that he should be hated, and other phenotypes that he should be supported. Much more of what you feel to be his inferiority was/is an intentional act, and your emotional response is what was intended.
Dividing is powerful. The British convinced Muslims and Hindus to hate each other despite living together without conflict for generations. The act split a country apar,t caused terrible carnage and created two separate nuclear powers with missiles aimed squarely at each other's capitals.
@Horace said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I agree with what much of what you're saying, though I think there is a distinction between claiming on the one hand that there is a set of ill-liberal ideas that are a component of the current political zeitgeist, and that are having impact in the wider population - a claim I would agree with, and on the other your original claim that a significant chunk of the population are completely bound up in this SJW identity thing. A significant chunk are influenced but surely only a small set are true ideologues
No, people are not ideologues by nature. They are afraid of the power exerted by the ideology. America is terrified of being called racist. It has to end.
I mean... yeah but there is a flip side. Racism is not completely dead and more importantly has a terrible legacy. The Black population in America as a population never recovered. They have higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth, they are worse off by almost any metric. I can't speak for you, but I really am privileged and the circumstances defining the fortune of my birthright is not independent of the misfortune of those born into worse circumstances.
There really is enormous injustice in the social heritability of advantage. Your country is crazy because it's still so frightened of a fictious soviet threat that policies that would ameliorate social problems are rejected as 'socialism'. How much money is spent on incarceration? How little on the provision of the kinds of services and support networks that can help people step outside of poverty.
BLM, Extinction Rebellion, LGBDQTQ++ (I'm bad with acronyms) All these movements make a certain amount of sense, it's just that social movements aren't really reasonable or rational they are emotional outbursts and they are often championed by the ideologically blinded. But their causes should be appreciated regardless.
Want to see racism? Go to the Far East, where even people who look alike, hate each other.
The problem in the black community left racism behind a long time ago. The reason that the black community has higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth and are worse off by many metrics, is because Father's Day is the most confusing day of the year in most inner city black communities.
Racism does not make 77% of black mothers give birth to illegitimate children. Racism does not create a culture, where education is not valued and children are urged to act stupidly in class, in order to get a "crazy check". Racism does not make black women abort 27.1% of their babies (and Sanger smiled). Racism does not stand in the HR office and deny black applicants decent jobs...In fact, most businesses would fight over a well-qualified black applicant.
Opportunity is rampant in America for black people. they just need to take advantage of it.We as a society have bent over backwards to provide that opportunity, so much so, that many very bright and prosperous black people complain there is now a taint on their accomplishments...A perception they have become what they are through lowered standards and preference.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Though I don't understand why you think Trump would help this situation.
Trump doesn't help. Preventing the guys the militants can influence from presiding over the government does.
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@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
The problem in the black community left racism behind a long time ago. The reason that the black community has higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth and are worse off by many metrics, is because Father's Day is the most confusing day of the year in most inner city black communities.
Racism does not make 77% of black mothers give birth to illegitimate children. Racism does not create a culture, where education is not valued and children are urged to act stupidly in class, in order to get a "crazy check". Racism does not make black women abort 27.1% of their babies (and Sanger smiled). Racism does not stand in the HR office and deny black applicants decent jobs...In fact, most businesses would fight over a well-qualified black applicant.
Opportunity is rampant in America for black people. they just need to take advantage of it.We as a society have bent over backwards to provide that opportunity, so much so, that many very bright and prosperous black people complain there is now a taint on their accomplishments...A perception they have become what they are through lowered standards and preference.Culture is heritable, wealth is heritable, preference for education is heritable. These things don't come out of a vacuum. You cannot pretend that the culture of today is not a function of the environment of yesterday.
I tend to agree that social policies that focus primarily on quotas and explicit handouts are not likely to achieve much and that truly raising the standard of living of a population of people is a difficult thing. Never the less collectively America has failed spectacularly at this.
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I just got off the phone with my parents. They're retired. Earlier this week they went and took a walk at a state park, bought some hoagies for dinner, normal shit. They met their neighbors for bocce and other old people stuff.
My mom told me she is utterly terrified of Trump supporters. She's legit worried about a revolt. She and my dad both think there's a real chance Trump voters will start driving around assaulting people. They have second thoughts about leaving the house. They think it would be a good idea to start pre-emptively getting a list together of the local diehard Trump supporters on social media so that the police can keep an eye on them.
My parents aren't senile. They're normal Americans. I'm sorry, no, they got this shit from the media, social and mainstream, and it's a goddamn problem. If anyone wants to know how in the world Trump has so many supporters, this is exactly how. People are so tired of the left's horseshit they'll emphatically support any open opposition to their narrative.
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Thank you for explaining your perspective. I appreciate it.
Also - this has been fun! Nice to talk you all (or at least a small number of you) again.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
We should have microtargetted facebook adverts that are aimed at convicing people that others with different political views are not the enemy. We should employ an armada of anti-trolls crossing social and cultural divides to write comments espousing common humanity in youtube videos and in the comments to news articles.
I absolutely agree but there's no money in it. There's massive money to be made by ginning up controversy, though, so that's what we have.
Cracked is an internet footnote now precisely because it didn't get on the Trump content train. They completely admit this as a mistake. Meanwhile, CNN is hanging on because getting people terrified is a great way to keep them glued to the screen.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
Thank you for explaining your perspective. I appreciate it.
Also - this has been fun! Nice to talk you all (or at least a small number of you) again.
Stick around man!
(...you don't do D&D by any chance, do you?)
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@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
A few points...Trump is not an ultra-conservative. Never has been. Especially not a fiscal conservative.
Bush 43? I remember the media being much tougher on him before 9/11, than on Obama. Trump just accelerated an already existing trend.
Nick Sandman? You really need to do some background reading. I think it will bring some clarity to the current state of the media.
Lastly, do you realize almost half the country voted for Trump? And I mean voted for. Probably about 75% of the votes he received were from people who liked his policies and political views. Those people still exist today.
Re-education and coercion by the MSM will continue. Ueber allen!
I checked out the Nick Sandmann case, and yes obviously that seems to be an instance of completely unacceptable and dishonest journalism.
Yes, I do realize almost half of those who voted, voted for Trump. This is something that I do find puzzling. There's a lot about this man to dislike, and it doesn't surprise me in the least that many people really hate him. And when you hate him, it is of course very difficult to have sympathy for those who voted for him.
On the other hand, whereas I would never vote for him, I do understand why other people voted for him over Clinton. I even get how he got through the primaries in 2016. He was something different, seemed refreshing and worth giving a try. Someone who would really shake things up (Drain the swamp!). And it seems like he did shake things up! But in a way that did not do your country much good in my opinion. And now it seems like all reason has left both sides and you're all blaming each other (although I believe - and hope - that my perception of the magnitude of it, is way overestimated due to how the media reports this).
And so, the left hates the right for voting for the guy they hate, and the right hates the left because of it. So the right continues to vote for Trump, and the left continues to hate the right for it. But four more years of this guy are not going to improve this in my opinion. He may be good for the economy and have certain policies that the right likes (hell, he may even have policies that the left likes), but that man is not made to keep a country together. The right seems to remain blind to that, and the left remains blind to their own flaws that nearly got Trump reelected. Both sides seem to be in dire need of introspection, but neither side seems to realize it.
Anyway, I can only look at this from far away through the eyes of our media and hope everything is not as heated in the US as they make it seem.
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@Moonbat said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
The problem in the black community left racism behind a long time ago. The reason that the black community has higher crime rates, lower literacy, lower wealth and are worse off by many metrics, is because Father's Day is the most confusing day of the year in most inner city black communities.
Racism does not make 77% of black mothers give birth to illegitimate children. Racism does not create a culture, where education is not valued and children are urged to act stupidly in class, in order to get a "crazy check". Racism does not make black women abort 27.1% of their babies (and Sanger smiled). Racism does not stand in the HR office and deny black applicants decent jobs...In fact, most businesses would fight over a well-qualified black applicant.
Opportunity is rampant in America for black people. they just need to take advantage of it.We as a society have bent over backwards to provide that opportunity, so much so, that many very bright and prosperous black people complain there is now a taint on their accomplishments...A perception they have become what they are through lowered standards and preference.Culture is heritable, wealth is heritable, preference for education is heritable. These things don't come out of a vacuum. You cannot pretend that the culture of today is not a function of the environment of yesterday.
I tend to agree that social policies that focus primarily on quotas and explicit handouts are not likely to achieve much and that truly raising the standard of living of a population of people is a difficult thing. Never the less collectively America has failed spectacularly at this.
There was somebody who raised the standard of living for many blacks. More than that standard had been raised in many years.
His name is Donald J. Trump.
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@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
A few points...Trump is not an ultra-conservative. Never has been. Especially not a fiscal conservative.
Bush 43? I remember the media being much tougher on him before 9/11, than on Obama. Trump just accelerated an already existing trend.
Nick Sandman? You really need to do some background reading. I think it will bring some clarity to the current state of the media.
Lastly, do you realize almost half the country voted for Trump? And I mean voted for. Probably about 75% of the votes he received were from people who liked his policies and political views. Those people still exist today.
Re-education and coercion by the MSM will continue. Ueber allen!
I checked out the Nick Sandmann case, and yes obviously that seems to be an instance of completely unacceptable and dishonest journalism.
Yes, I do realize almost half of those who voted, voted for Trump. This is something that I do find puzzling. There's a lot about this man to dislike, and it doesn't surprise me in the least that many people really hate him. And when you hate him, it is of course very difficult to have sympathy for those who voted for him.
On the other hand, whereas I would never vote for him, I do understand why other people voted for him over Clinton. I even get how he got through the primaries in 2016. He was something different, seemed refreshing and worth giving a try. Someone who would really shake things up (Drain the swamp!). And it seems like he did shake things up! But in a way that did not do your country much good in my opinion. And now it seems like all reason has left both sides and you're all blaming each other (although I believe - and hope - that my perception of the magnitude of it, is way overestimated due to how the media reports this).
And so, the left hates the right for voting for the guy they hate, and the right hates the left because of it. So the right continues to vote for Trump, and the left continues to hate the right for it. But four more years of this guy are not going to improve this in my opinion. He may be good for the economy and have certain policies that the right likes (hell, he may even have policies that the left likes), but that man is not made to keep a country together. The right seems to remain blind to that, and the left remains blind to their own flaws that nearly got Trump reelected. Both sides seem to be in dire need of introspection, but neither side seems to realize it.
Anyway, I can only look at this from far away through the eyes of our media and hope everything is not as heated in the US as they make it seem.
I don't think you realize the disdain and disgust the Left in America feels for people on the Right. The Basket of Deplorables.
Biden will not improve this. Harris will accelerate it, when she becomes President.
Always remember, Operation Valkyrie was an act of sedition.
Warning: I post things that interest me. Read and comment at your own discretion. -
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
The right seems to remain blind to that, and the left remains blind to their own flaws that nearly got Trump reelected. Both sides seem to be in dire need of introspection, but neither side seems to realize it.
Speak on, brother.As Trump recedes in the rearview, the perception of his influence will change. Less frenzy, more analysis, without him around to keep the waters roiled.
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@Catseye3 said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
The right seems to remain blind to that, and the left remains blind to their own flaws that nearly got Trump reelected. Both sides seem to be in dire need of introspection, but neither side seems to realize it.
Speak on, brother.As Trump recedes in the rearview, the perception of his influence will change. Less frenzy, more analysis, without him around to keep the waters roiled.
That makes sense cat’s-eye and @Nunatax
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@Catseye3 said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
@Nunatax said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
The right seems to remain blind to that, and the left remains blind to their own flaws that nearly got Trump reelected. Both sides seem to be in dire need of introspection, but neither side seems to realize it.
Speak on, brother.As Trump recedes in the rearview, the perception of his influence will change. Less frenzy, more analysis, without him around to keep the waters roiled.
Trump News Network
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@Jolly said in Can we at least end one narrative?:
I don't think you realize the disdain and disgust the Left in America feels for people on the Right. The Basket of Deplorables.
Biden will not improve this. Harris will accelerate it, when she becomes President.
Well, it's hard to get a feeling for the level of disdain that the left feels for the right from so far away. But from what Aqua has described, it seems like there is indeed a real problem there. To me this seems like the action-reaction I described earlier, given that Trump is quite a controversial man to say the least. At the same time, I also think Trump just made this speed up (I see him as a symptom, not really a root cause). Over the years I have come to realize that on many topics there hardly seems to be a middle road in the US. I wonder if this is because of the two party system. Every country has nutjobs that hold extreme views. They can usually join political parties that never really stand a chance against the more moderate ones. But when there's only two parties (and an independent option that no one really seems to care about), they don't have anywhere else to go. In elections in which literally every vote counts, neither side wants to alienate these people. That makes them feel empowered and off it goes, pretty extreme and often ridiculous ideas start to get normalized and find more and more traction.
You could be right that Biden is not going to improve things and I don't know about Harris (simply don't know her well enough). It could very well still get worse. But I really doubt that a 4 year Biden presidency would come even close to doing the damage that four more years of Trump would do. And if after these 4 years there's a need to elect a republican again, I'm sure that that is what will happen. I do hope the choice will be made for a moderate one who at least tries to bring the two sides together.
