Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19
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wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 15:10 last edited by
Some people say that anybody who is religious is an idiot.
Some people say that anybody who doesn't believe in God is an idiot.
Maybe they're both right.
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@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Well, he wasn't really religious in the past even when talking about the bible. He presented the bible as containing truths about human nature. The bible had the same metaphysical status to him as great literature or art or other forms of mythology. I liked that point of view. His points were interesting, regardless of whether one believes in God or not. I'd find it regrettable if that would change and he'd become some sort of preacher.
Well first of all, this really doesn't have anything to do with anything, but he's said time and again that they aren't his points; he's just compiled research. And he's right. Anyone who's taken literary theory seriously has heard his arguments many times over. This is what you get when you overemphasize the STEM fields and make snide jokes about the "Studies" majors: you hear bedrock literary analysis that's compiled centuries of writing and you think it's new and innovative, because to you it is.
Anyway, I seriously doubt he's going to get all Joel Osteen on his work. Either way, though, I don't care if he gets more religious. The principles of logic tell me his analysis will stand on the support of the arguments he presents, not how much of a nutter atheists think he is.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 15:20 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Well, he wasn't really religious in the past even when talking about the bible. He presented the bible as containing truths about human nature. The bible had the same metaphysical status to him as great literature or art or other forms of mythology. I liked that point of view. His points were interesting, regardless of whether one believes in God or not. I'd find it regrettable if that would change and he'd become some sort of preacher.
Well first of all, this really doesn't have anything to do with anything, but he's said time and again that they aren't his points; he's just compiled research. And he's right. Anyone who's taken literary theory seriously has heard his arguments many times over. This is what you get when you overemphasize the STEM fields and make snide jokes about the "Studies" majors: you hear bedrock literary analysis that's compiled centuries of writing and you think it's new and innovative, because to you it is.
What a strange point you are making. So if you find Peterson interesting, it is because you know the literature and already know all the arguments he's making (but then why do you find him interesting?) But if I find it interesting it is because I'm a silly STEM guy who isn't aware of literary analysis? Wtf? Of course I'm aware that many of his points have been made by others before, but that's the case for almost everything anybody ever says.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Well, he wasn't really religious in the past even when talking about the bible. He presented the bible as containing truths about human nature. The bible had the same metaphysical status to him as great literature or art or other forms of mythology. I liked that point of view. His points were interesting, regardless of whether one believes in God or not. I'd find it regrettable if that would change and he'd become some sort of preacher.
Well first of all, this really doesn't have anything to do with anything, but he's said time and again that they aren't his points; he's just compiled research. And he's right. Anyone who's taken literary theory seriously has heard his arguments many times over. This is what you get when you overemphasize the STEM fields and make snide jokes about the "Studies" majors: you hear bedrock literary analysis that's compiled centuries of writing and you think it's new and innovative, because to you it is.
What a strange point you are making. So if you find Peterson interesting, it is because you know the literature and already know all the arguments he's making (but then why do you find him interesting?) But if I find it interesting it is because I'm a silly STEM guy who isn't aware of literary analysis? Wtf? Of course I'm aware that many of his points have been made by others before, but that's the case for almost everything anybody ever says.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 16:24 last edited by@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
What a strange point you are making. So if you find Peterson interesting, it is because you know the literature and already know all the arguments he's making (but then why do you find him interesting?) But if I find it interesting it is because I'm a silly STEM guy who isn't aware of literary analysis? Wtf? Of course I'm aware that many of his points have been made by others before, but that's the case for almost everything anybody ever says.
Nope, that's a ham-fisted interpretation of what I said. I prefaced that entire paragraph by saying it doesn't have to do with anything we're currently discussing. I'm not accusing you, Klaus, of being a silly STEM guy. (I'm accusing you of perhaps being willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding Peterson's work and his religious views, but that's it.)
I'm saying that yes, I've heard Peterson's arguments before. But how he supports them, with a mix of psychology and mythology, is unique. It's basically a repackaging of Structuralism, except he's swapped Levi-Strauss's anthropology for psychology. So the "what" of his arguments aren't new to me but the "hows" are. I think anyone studying literature should take a look Maps of Meaning.
As for silly STEM people, that was an indictment against silly STEM people, not you in particular. STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized. (As for the liberal invasion of those disciplines, the institutions responsible for teaching these subjects have every right to be demonized, but that just further complicates matters.) But the arts and humanities are just as important.
It's fascinating for me to go into Rosslyn, Virginia. There are a shitload of office workers there, many of which government contractors. These people do very well for themselves, and hey, not having to worry about the lower tiers of Maslow's hierarchy is no small thing. But there's weirdness there, too. A lot of those people aren't funny. They're not even remotely funny. Their humorous contribution to a conversation is to, over and over again, sarcastically quote lines from sitcoms. That's all they're capable of, that's their one thing. I'm no Dave Chappelle or anything, not even close, but there's something sad about someone who doesn't even know how to throw a stupid joke around.
I've got other things I could bring up but basically, they seem like accomplished, professional flakes with nothing substantial to root them. When you go all in on STEM learning, that's what can happen. Your life becomes convenient but not substantive. You can afford to go to Paris, but you're ignorant of the point behind the art you photograph on your phone. Things get bad enough and you start doing some drastic shit in middle age.
Believe me, it's just as bad to go all in on the arts and humanities and have no science background. It's just that the former mistake is heralded as some kind of virtue and it absolutely isn't.
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@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
What a strange point you are making. So if you find Peterson interesting, it is because you know the literature and already know all the arguments he's making (but then why do you find him interesting?) But if I find it interesting it is because I'm a silly STEM guy who isn't aware of literary analysis? Wtf? Of course I'm aware that many of his points have been made by others before, but that's the case for almost everything anybody ever says.
Nope, that's a ham-fisted interpretation of what I said. I prefaced that entire paragraph by saying it doesn't have to do with anything we're currently discussing. I'm not accusing you, Klaus, of being a silly STEM guy. (I'm accusing you of perhaps being willing to throw the baby out with the bathwater regarding Peterson's work and his religious views, but that's it.)
I'm saying that yes, I've heard Peterson's arguments before. But how he supports them, with a mix of psychology and mythology, is unique. It's basically a repackaging of Structuralism, except he's swapped Levi-Strauss's anthropology for psychology. So the "what" of his arguments aren't new to me but the "hows" are. I think anyone studying literature should take a look Maps of Meaning.
As for silly STEM people, that was an indictment against silly STEM people, not you in particular. STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized. (As for the liberal invasion of those disciplines, the institutions responsible for teaching these subjects have every right to be demonized, but that just further complicates matters.) But the arts and humanities are just as important.
It's fascinating for me to go into Rosslyn, Virginia. There are a shitload of office workers there, many of which government contractors. These people do very well for themselves, and hey, not having to worry about the lower tiers of Maslow's hierarchy is no small thing. But there's weirdness there, too. A lot of those people aren't funny. They're not even remotely funny. Their humorous contribution to a conversation is to, over and over again, sarcastically quote lines from sitcoms. That's all they're capable of, that's their one thing. I'm no Dave Chappelle or anything, not even close, but there's something sad about someone who doesn't even know how to throw a stupid joke around.
I've got other things I could bring up but basically, they seem like accomplished, professional flakes with nothing substantial to root them. When you go all in on STEM learning, that's what can happen. Your life becomes convenient but not substantive. You can afford to go to Paris, but you're ignorant of the point behind the art you photograph on your phone. Things get bad enough and you start doing some drastic shit in middle age.
Believe me, it's just as bad to go all in on the arts and humanities and have no science background. It's just that the former mistake is heralded as some kind of virtue and it absolutely isn't.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 16:48 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 16:54 last edited by@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
Also, the fucking poetry doesn't even rhyme.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 16:57 last edited by Aqua Letifer@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
Guidance counselors, teachers, parents, job ads, friends, neighbors, etc., etc. I can't tell you how many people I went to school with, worked with, or met who wanted to study something in the arts and humanities, but their parents saw no value in it so they refused to pay tuition unless they changed majors. It's a very common story. My own parents thought I had lost my mind when I told them what I wanted to get my Master's in. If you want a perfect illustration of this, ask Ax about it.
And no, it's not more under attack, we're just able to see it online for the first time in 300 years.
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@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
Also, the fucking poetry doesn't even rhyme.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 16:58 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
Also, the fucking poetry doesn't even rhyme.
Rigid metrical structures are a symptom of cultural hegemony and patriarchal tyranny. You don't believe me, go ask Judith Butler.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
I hope he doesn't become too religious now.
Klaus, he's done an entire lecture series on Genesis. Maps of Meaning is all about a comprehensive analysis of the Bible, Egyptian mythology, and Mesopotamian mythology.
If you don't like listening to a religious perspective then there's absolutely no point in you listening to him about anything.
There's a difference between a religious perspective and people who are too religious. People who are too religious never seem able to grasp this.
I recently contacted an old friend. After about three emails he'd started asking me whether I'd been saved, and told me that my time was short. Fuck that for a game of soldiers. Of course, he thought he was doing me a favour.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 17:18 last edited by@Doctor-Phibes said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
I hope he doesn't become too religious now.
Klaus, he's done an entire lecture series on Genesis. Maps of Meaning is all about a comprehensive analysis of the Bible, Egyptian mythology, and Mesopotamian mythology.
If you don't like listening to a religious perspective then there's absolutely no point in you listening to him about anything.
There's a difference between a religious perspective and people who are too religious. People who are too religious never seem able to grasp this.
I recently contacted an old friend. After about three emails he'd started asking me whether I'd been saved, and told me that my time was short. Fuck that for a game of soldiers. Of course, he thought he was doing me a favour.
He was, you ungrateful bastard.
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@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
STEM and only STEM is shoved down our throats today, so much so that the arts and humanities are being demonized.
By whom? Also, who shoves down STEM our throats? If anything, there's a crisis of scientific thinking. For the first time in 300 years, it's under attack from both the left and the right.
Guidance counselors, teachers, parents, job ads, friends, neighbors, etc., etc. I can't tell you how many people I went to school with, worked with, or met who wanted to study something in the arts and humanities, but their parents saw no value in it so they refused to pay tuition unless they changed majors. It's a very common story. My own parents thought I had lost my mind when I told them what I wanted to get my Master's in. If you want a perfect illustration of this, ask Ax about it.
And no, it's not more under attack, we're just able to see it online for the first time in 300 years.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 17:25 last edited by@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Guidance counselors, teachers, parents, job ads, friends, neighbors, etc., etc. I can't tell you how many people I went to school with, worked with, or met who wanted to study something in the arts and humanities, but their parents saw no value in it so they refused to pay tuition unless they changed majors. It's a very common story. My own parents thought I had lost my mind when I told them what I wanted to get my Master's in.
Hm. I think you are confusing two things here: 1) The value of the arts and humanities for mankind, 2) The value of the arts and humanities as a career choice. It just happens to be the case that, in many of these domains, there are less jobs than graduates, hence it is not necessarily a wise idea to graduate in that domain. I for one wouldn't stop my kids from studying a humanities/arts subject, but I would ask questions and make sure that they fully understand all the potential consequences. That's the job of a good parent. All this has nothing to do with point 1) from above.
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@Doctor-Phibes said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
I hope he doesn't become too religious now.
Klaus, he's done an entire lecture series on Genesis. Maps of Meaning is all about a comprehensive analysis of the Bible, Egyptian mythology, and Mesopotamian mythology.
If you don't like listening to a religious perspective then there's absolutely no point in you listening to him about anything.
There's a difference between a religious perspective and people who are too religious. People who are too religious never seem able to grasp this.
I recently contacted an old friend. After about three emails he'd started asking me whether I'd been saved, and told me that my time was short. Fuck that for a game of soldiers. Of course, he thought he was doing me a favour.
He was, you ungrateful bastard.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 17:38 last edited by@Jolly said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Doctor-Phibes said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
I hope he doesn't become too religious now.
Klaus, he's done an entire lecture series on Genesis. Maps of Meaning is all about a comprehensive analysis of the Bible, Egyptian mythology, and Mesopotamian mythology.
If you don't like listening to a religious perspective then there's absolutely no point in you listening to him about anything.
There's a difference between a religious perspective and people who are too religious. People who are too religious never seem able to grasp this.
I recently contacted an old friend. After about three emails he'd started asking me whether I'd been saved, and told me that my time was short. Fuck that for a game of soldiers. Of course, he thought he was doing me a favour.
He was, you ungrateful bastard.
The really funny thing is that he's a Muslim. No lie.
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@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Guidance counselors, teachers, parents, job ads, friends, neighbors, etc., etc. I can't tell you how many people I went to school with, worked with, or met who wanted to study something in the arts and humanities, but their parents saw no value in it so they refused to pay tuition unless they changed majors. It's a very common story. My own parents thought I had lost my mind when I told them what I wanted to get my Master's in.
Hm. I think you are confusing two things here: 1) The value of the arts and humanities for mankind, 2) The value of the arts and humanities as a career choice. It just happens to be the case that, in many of these domains, there are less jobs than graduates, hence it is not necessarily a wise idea to graduate in that domain. I for one wouldn't stop my kids from studying a humanities/arts subject, but I would ask questions and make sure that they fully understand all the potential consequences. That's the job of a good parent. All this has nothing to do with point 1) from above.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 17:59 last edited by Aqua Letifer@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Hm. I think you are confusing two things here: 1) The value of the arts and humanities for mankind, 2) The value of the arts and humanities as a career choice.
I'm absolutely not doing that. College is expensive as hell. It shouldn't be merely an extended trial period for your job. You should spend that time also deciding what your life is going to be about: your job, sure, but also what's meaningful to you outside of your job, how you're going to navigate your relationships with your family and friends after you start out into the world, what you're going to do about starting a family of your own, etc.
I also see no problem with studying one subject in college and working in an unrelated field after graduation. The importance of your major has seriously diminishing returns the longer you've been out of school.
It just happens to be the case that, in many of these domains, there are less jobs than graduates, hence it is not necessarily a wise idea to graduate in that domain. I for one wouldn't stop my kids from studying a humanities/arts subject, but I would ask questions and make sure that they fully understand all the potential consequences.
I think similarly: it's bad to put all your eggs into one basket. But while everyone knows it's bad to go all in on a theatre degree with delusions of becoming a Hollywood actor and no practical planning whatsoever, far more ignored is the pitfall of picking something practical as a major, studying that, and faffing about in your off hours without ever figuring out what you need in your life to make it balanced and worthwhile. That's how you get basketcases in office jobs and middle-aged affairs.
As for (1), lack of formal education leads to lack of appreciation in later life. The arts and humanities are absolutely neglected in our society today. Nonsense self-help books are among the top sellers in bookstores for a reason. Jocko Willink is awesome, but there's absolutely nothing new about Extreme Ownership. It's just Marcus Aurelius for people who have no idea who that is.
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wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 19:53 last edited by
A really great post, Aqua.
I'm reminded of one of my major professors in grad school, who would often remind us, "the purpose of higher education is NOT skill training."Another (jerk) was a dept chair, that would say, "you MUST be marketable."
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wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 20:05 last edited by Klaus
Why does higher education have to have a single purpose?
Skill training is of course a major component of higher education. More general "cultivation of the mind and character" (to quote Humbold) is another major component.
One of these isn't much worth without the other.
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Why does higher education have to have a single purpose?
Skill training is of course a major component of higher education. More general "cultivation of the mind and character" (to quote Humbold) is another major component.
One of these isn't much worth without the other.
wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 22:14 last edited by Horace@Klaus said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Why does higher education have to have a single purpose?
Skill training is of course a major component of higher education. More general "cultivation of the mind and character" (to quote Humbold) is another major component.
One of these isn't much worth without the other.
Lots of mind cultivation goes on in common core, amirite @Rainman?
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wrote on 20 Oct 2020, 22:27 last edited by
I think STEM education combined with classic liberal arts classes, makes for a well-rounded young person.
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I think STEM education combined with classic liberal arts classes, makes for a well-rounded young person.
wrote on 21 Oct 2020, 02:00 last edited by@Jolly said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
I think STEM education combined with classic liberal arts classes, makes for a well-rounded young person.
I'd agree, except I would use the acronym STEAM.
The arts are not just music of course. But including the arts in general interjects the creative component, the entrepreneurial side, the "right brain" side even though that's inaccurate of how the brain works.As for Horace's Common Core bait, nah, I'm swimming away from that rant for now.
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@Jolly said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
I think STEM education combined with classic liberal arts classes, makes for a well-rounded young person.
I'd agree, except I would use the acronym STEAM.
The arts are not just music of course. But including the arts in general interjects the creative component, the entrepreneurial side, the "right brain" side even though that's inaccurate of how the brain works.As for Horace's Common Core bait, nah, I'm swimming away from that rant for now.
wrote on 21 Oct 2020, 02:03 last edited by Aqua Letifer@Rainman said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
I'd agree, except I would use the acronym STEAM.
I don't like it because it's still unbalanced.
Science
Technology
Engineering
Arts
MathematicsJoke.
Oh and by the way, true entrepreneurs (read: not just business owners) have much, much more in common with arts students than business students.
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wrote on 21 Oct 2020, 02:57 last edited by
@Aqua-Letifer said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
Oh and by the way, true entrepreneurs (read: not just business owners) have much, much more in common with arts students than business students.
Very true. That's something Peterson covered as well. Creaters create the idea and the business, then the left-brainers are needed to run it because creative people can't do it, don't want to do it, get bored, get overwhelmed with the day-to-day perfunctory tasks, run off with the secretary, eat too much, get fat, invent a new diet gadget, hire middle-managers to run the new business, entrepreneur runs away from the daily grind, starts drinking, stays drunk, eats too much, gets fatter, joins TNCR, and so on.
We've all been there, no question. -
wrote on 21 Oct 2020, 03:25 last edited by
I think there is probably a repellant force between artists and school. So maybe this is not a simple conversation.
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I think there is probably a repellant force between artists and school. So maybe this is not a simple conversation.
wrote on 21 Oct 2020, 03:46 last edited by@Horace said in Jordan Peterson Video new Oct. 19:
So maybe this is not a simple conversation.
I have my ideas, but no, I really don't think it is.