So what happens if….
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wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 03:04 last edited by
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
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Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 03:09 last edited by@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Continues what? The slow loss of the country? Or do the Europeans give enough support to escalate the situation? Ukraine’s in a tough spot. The conscription of forces is a real thing, and the morale of the front line troops is extremely low.
And what is a surrender? I don’t think Trump wants Putin in Kiev. So, is settling the line where it is right now a surrender? Is anything less than the 2014 borders a surrender? Please clarify.
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Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 03:28 last edited by@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
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@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Continues what? The slow loss of the country? Or do the Europeans give enough support to escalate the situation? Ukraine’s in a tough spot. The conscription of forces is a real thing, and the morale of the front line troops is extremely low.
And what is a surrender? I don’t think Trump wants Putin in Kiev. So, is settling the line where it is right now a surrender? Is anything less than the 2014 borders a surrender? Please clarify.
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 03:34 last edited by jon-nyc 3 Apr 2025, 03:34For the purposes of this thread surrendering would be to stop fighting and put his countries fate in the hands of Trump/Putin.
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@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 03:35 last edited by@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
So your position is Trump would just deal with it and not try to force his will on Ukraine and Europe?
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@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
So your position is Trump would just deal with it and not try to force his will on Ukraine and Europe?
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 03:39 last edited by@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
So your position is Trump would just deal with it and not try to force his will on Ukraine and Europe?
I mostly trust that if you think Trump will do something terrible, and predict it, then there will exist rhetorical framings in which Trump did that thing. As for "Trump threatening Europe on Putin's behalf", I would watch with some curiosity the frame you'd impose one <whatever> that proves you right about that.
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wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 03:41 last edited by
You can read that as ‘Trump threatening Europe to stop helping Ukraine’ and the fact that it helps Putin can just be a happy coincidence.
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wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 05:30 last edited by LuFins Dad 3 Apr 2025, 05:30
I don’t understand why everybody keeps framing Trump as Putin’s Lackey/Stooge. President of the United States carries far more power than Leader of Russia at this point. I think the Polish leader put it pretty damn well… 500M Europeans asking 300M Americans to defend them from 140M Russians.
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For the purposes of this thread surrendering would be to stop fighting and put his countries fate in the hands of Trump/Putin.
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 05:32 last edited by@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
For the purposes of this thread surrendering would be to stop fighting and put his countries fate in the hands of Trump/Putin.
And? That implies that he wouldn’t have a say. No matter what, he and (and Europe) has a say.
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@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 05:36 last edited by@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?
The Brad
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wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 12:45 last edited by
Of course not. As long as Trump is in the Whitehouse, we should be all things to all people.
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@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 12:59 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in So what happens if….:
@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?
I think that is a legit argument. Let's play a game of risk. Think about it...
If one player has Russia and one player has all of Europe, the European player should move lots of their damn pieces to Ukraine and squash out the conflict. Russia loses. Then, wave a magic wand, get Ukraine part of NATO (Belarus too, for that matter...), make all countries pay more for it, the world is at peace. Eventually Russia, China, and Iran internally collapse due to natural urges for freedom and capitalism. TNCR is quiet as there's nothing to talk about. @George-K returns.
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@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?
wrote on 4 Mar 2025, 16:46 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in So what happens if….:
@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?
Of course? But, good luck making arguments about global strategic positioning in the face of virtue narratives. Moral outrage has a way of displacing all oxygen for any other conversation, and that is the point. (Even as the useful idiots don't know it's the point, as they dutifully feel their feelings, and express them in increasingly shrill shrieking noises.)
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@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?
wrote on 5 Mar 2025, 00:06 last edited by@LuFins-Dad said in So what happens if….:
@Horace said in So what happens if….:
@jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:
Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?
Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?
Can you believe we have to ask these questions?
Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?
Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?
Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?
Apropos:
Link to videoHe mentions Elbridge Colby, who I believe is being confirmed today as third in command at the defense department. There's a long Tucker interview with Colby on youtube, from just before the election.
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wrote on 5 Mar 2025, 00:28 last edited by Renauda 3 May 2025, 00:51
At NATOs inception the prevailing wisdom or policy was a matter of “Keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down’ to now when the words read more like:
Keep the Russians behind the Dnipro, the Americans from losing interest, and somehow figure out how to resurrect Churchill, Napoleon and Frederick the Great.
…and, I forgot, Gustavus Adolphus
