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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
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  3. So what happens if….

So what happens if….

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  • jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nycJ Offline
    jon-nyc
    wrote on last edited by
    #1

    Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

    Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

    Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

    Only non-witches get due process.

    • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
    LuFins DadL HoraceH 2 Replies Last reply
    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

      Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

      Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

      Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

      LuFins DadL Offline
      LuFins DadL Offline
      LuFins Dad
      wrote on last edited by
      #2

      @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

      Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

      Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

      Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

      Continues what? The slow loss of the country? Or do the Europeans give enough support to escalate the situation? Ukraine’s in a tough spot. The conscription of forces is a real thing, and the morale of the front line troops is extremely low.

      And what is a surrender? I don’t think Trump wants Putin in Kiev. So, is settling the line where it is right now a surrender? Is anything less than the 2014 borders a surrender? Please clarify.

      The Brad

      jon-nycJ 1 Reply Last reply
      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

        Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

        Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

        Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

        HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #3

        @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

        Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

        Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

        Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

        Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

        Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

        Education is extremely important.

        jon-nycJ LuFins DadL 2 Replies Last reply
        • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

          @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

          Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

          Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

          Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

          Continues what? The slow loss of the country? Or do the Europeans give enough support to escalate the situation? Ukraine’s in a tough spot. The conscription of forces is a real thing, and the morale of the front line troops is extremely low.

          And what is a surrender? I don’t think Trump wants Putin in Kiev. So, is settling the line where it is right now a surrender? Is anything less than the 2014 borders a surrender? Please clarify.

          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
          #4

          @LuFins-Dad

          For the purposes of this thread surrendering would be to stop fighting and put his countries fate in the hands of Trump/Putin.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          LuFins DadL 1 Reply Last reply
          • HoraceH Horace

            @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

            Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

            Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

            Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

            Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

            Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by
            #5

            @Horace said in So what happens if….:

            @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

            Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

            Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

            Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

            Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

            Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

            So your position is Trump would just deal with it and not try to force his will on Ukraine and Europe?

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
            • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

              @Horace said in So what happens if….:

              @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

              Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

              Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

              Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

              Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

              Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

              So your position is Trump would just deal with it and not try to force his will on Ukraine and Europe?

              HoraceH Offline
              HoraceH Offline
              Horace
              wrote on last edited by
              #6

              @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

              @Horace said in So what happens if….:

              @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

              Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

              Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

              Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

              Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

              Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

              So your position is Trump would just deal with it and not try to force his will on Ukraine and Europe?

              I mostly trust that if you think Trump will do something terrible, and predict it, then there will exist rhetorical framings in which Trump did that thing. As for "Trump threatening Europe on Putin's behalf", I would watch with some curiosity the frame you'd impose one <whatever> that proves you right about that.

              Education is extremely important.

              1 Reply Last reply
              • jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nycJ Offline
                jon-nyc
                wrote on last edited by
                #7

                You can read that as ‘Trump threatening Europe to stop helping Ukraine’ and the fact that it helps Putin can just be a happy coincidence.

                Only non-witches get due process.

                • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                1 Reply Last reply
                • LuFins DadL Offline
                  LuFins DadL Offline
                  LuFins Dad
                  wrote on last edited by LuFins Dad
                  #8

                  I don’t understand why everybody keeps framing Trump as Putin’s Lackey/Stooge. President of the United States carries far more power than Leader of Russia at this point. I think the Polish leader put it pretty damn well… 500M Europeans asking 300M Americans to defend them from 140M Russians.

                  The Brad

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                    @LuFins-Dad

                    For the purposes of this thread surrendering would be to stop fighting and put his countries fate in the hands of Trump/Putin.

                    LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins DadL Offline
                    LuFins Dad
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #9

                    @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                    @LuFins-Dad

                    For the purposes of this thread surrendering would be to stop fighting and put his countries fate in the hands of Trump/Putin.

                    And? That implies that he wouldn’t have a say. No matter what, he and (and Europe) has a say.

                    The Brad

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • HoraceH Horace

                      @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                      Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                      Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                      Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                      Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                      Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                      LuFins DadL Offline
                      LuFins DadL Offline
                      LuFins Dad
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #10

                      @Horace said in So what happens if….:

                      @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                      Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                      Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                      Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                      Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                      Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                      Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?

                      The Brad

                      89th8 HoraceH 3 Replies Last reply
                      • JollyJ Offline
                        JollyJ Offline
                        Jolly
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #11

                        Of course not. As long as Trump is in the Whitehouse, we should be all things to all people.

                        “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                        Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                          @Horace said in So what happens if….:

                          @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                          Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                          Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                          Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                          Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                          Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                          Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?

                          89th8 Offline
                          89th8 Offline
                          89th
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #12

                          @LuFins-Dad said in So what happens if….:

                          @Horace said in So what happens if….:

                          @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                          Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                          Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                          Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                          Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                          Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                          Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?

                          I think that is a legit argument. Let's play a game of risk. Think about it...

                          If one player has Russia and one player has all of Europe, the European player should move lots of their damn pieces to Ukraine and squash out the conflict. Russia loses. Then, wave a magic wand, get Ukraine part of NATO (Belarus too, for that matter...), make all countries pay more for it, the world is at peace. Eventually Russia, China, and Iran internally collapse due to natural urges for freedom and capitalism. TNCR is quiet as there's nothing to talk about. @George-K returns.

                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                            @Horace said in So what happens if….:

                            @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                            Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                            Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                            Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                            Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                            Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                            Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?

                            HoraceH Offline
                            HoraceH Offline
                            Horace
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #13

                            @LuFins-Dad said in So what happens if….:

                            @Horace said in So what happens if….:

                            @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                            Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                            Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                            Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                            Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                            Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                            Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?

                            Of course? But, good luck making arguments about global strategic positioning in the face of virtue narratives. Moral outrage has a way of displacing all oxygen for any other conversation, and that is the point. (Even as the useful idiots don't know it's the point, as they dutifully feel their feelings, and express them in increasingly shrill shrieking noises.)

                            Education is extremely important.

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • LuFins DadL LuFins Dad

                              @Horace said in So what happens if….:

                              @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                              Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                              Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                              Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                              Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                              Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                              Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?

                              HoraceH Offline
                              HoraceH Offline
                              Horace
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #14

                              @LuFins-Dad said in So what happens if….:

                              @Horace said in So what happens if….:

                              @jon-nyc said in So what happens if….:

                              Ukraine refuses to surrender and continues with European help?

                              Will Trump just deal with it or start threatening Europe on Putin’s behalf?

                              Can you believe we have to ask these questions?

                              Is the person forcing you to ask that question, in the room with you now?

                              Is the need widespread enough that anybody else is asking whether Trump will "threaten Europe on Putin's behalf"?

                              Is there a legitimate argument to be made that at some point Europe does have to take over the primary defense of its own territory? That doesn’t mean that the US isn’t an ally, and an important one, but that Europe’s defense primarily relies on Europeans? And that the US can/should turn most of it’s attention to China?

                              Apropos:

                              Link to video

                              He mentions Elbridge Colby, who I believe is being confirmed today as third in command at the defense department. There's a long Tucker interview with Colby on youtube, from just before the election.

                              Education is extremely important.

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • RenaudaR Offline
                                RenaudaR Offline
                                Renauda
                                wrote on last edited by Renauda
                                #15

                                At NATOs inception the prevailing wisdom or policy was a matter of “Keep the Russians out, the Americans in, and the Germans down’ to now when the words read more like:

                                Keep the Russians behind the Dnipro, the Americans from losing interest, and somehow figure out how to resurrect Churchill, Napoleon and Frederick the Great.

                                …and, I forgot, Gustavus Adolphus

                                Elbows up!

                                1 Reply Last reply
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