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The New Coffee Room

  1. TNCR
  2. General Discussion
  3. Travesty

Travesty

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  • George KG Offline
    George KG Offline
    George K
    wrote on last edited by George K
    #83

    Jonathan Turley comments on Obama's comments about Flynn:

    In a "leaked private conversation", Obama said:

    “The news over the last 24 hours I think has been somewhat downplayed — about the Justice Department dropping charges against Michael Flynn,” Obama said in a web talk with members of the Obama Alumni Association.

    “And the fact that there is no precedent that anybody can find for someone who has been charged with perjury just getting off scot-free. That’s the kind of stuff where you begin to get worried that basic — not just institutional norms — but our basic understanding of rule of law is at risk. And when you start moving in those directions, it can accelerate pretty quickly as we’ve seen in other places.”

    Turley comments:

    "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

    The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

    1 Reply Last reply
    • George KG Offline
      George KG Offline
      George K
      wrote on last edited by
      #84

      Snort: Obama Pardons James Cartwright, General Who Lied to F.B.I. in Leak Case

      President Obama on Tuesday pardoned James E. Cartwright, a retired Marine Corps general and former vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff who pleaded guilty to lying to the F.B.I. about his discussions with reporters about Iran’s nuclear program, saving him from a possible prison sentence.
      General Cartwright, who was a key member of Mr. Obama’s national security team in his first term and earned a reputation as the president’s favorite general, pleaded guilty late last year to misleading investigators looking into the leaking of classified information about cyberattacks against Iran.
      He was due to be sentenced this month. His defense team had asked for a year of probation and 600 hours of community service, but prosecutors had asked the judge overseeing his case to send him to prison for two years.
      Now, the retired general will be spared such punishment.

      Both General Cartwright and his lawyer, Gregory Craig, a former White House counsel to Mr. Obama, thanked the president in statements. “The president’s decision is wise and just, and it achieves the right result,” Mr. Craig said. “It allows General Cartwright to continue his life’s work — to serve, protect and defend the nation he loves. It allows the nation to continue to benefit from his vast experience and knowledge.”

      If it weren't for the double standard, he'd have no standards at all.

      (Yeah, I know, a pardon is not the same as dropping the case from prosecution.)

      "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

      The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

      1 Reply Last reply
      • MikM Away
        MikM Away
        Mik
        wrote on last edited by
        #85

        Bu then we already know about the double standard.

        “I am fond of pigs. Dogs look up to us. Cats look down on us. Pigs treat us as equals.” ~Winston S. Churchill

        1 Reply Last reply
        • George KG Offline
          George KG Offline
          George K
          wrote on last edited by
          #86

          Flynn's lawyer writes to Obama:

          Highlights:

          First, General Flynn was not charged with perjury—which requires a material false statement made under oath with intent to deceive.1 A perjury prosecution would have been appropriate and the Rule of Law applied if the Justice Department prosecuted your former FBI Deputy Director Andrew McCabe for his multiple lies under oath in an investigation of a leak only he knew he caused.

          McCabe lied under oath in fully recorded and transcribed interviews with the Inspector General for the DOJ. He was informed of the purpose of the interview, and he had had the benefit of counsel. He knew he was the leaker. McCabe even lied about lying. He lied to his own agents—which sent them on a “wild-goose-chase”—thereby making his lies “material” and an obstruction of justice. Yet, remarkably, Attorney General Barr declined to prosecute McCabe for these offenses.

          Applying the Rule of Law, after declining McCabe’s perjury prosecution, required the Justice Department to dismiss the prosecution of General Flynn who was not warned, not under oath, had no counsel, and whose statements were not only not recorded, but were created as false by FBI agents who falsified the 302.

          Second, it would seem your “wingman” Eric Holder is missing a step these days at Covington & Burling LLP. Indelibly marked in his memory (and one might think, yours) should be his Motion to Dismiss the multi-count jury verdict of guilty and the entire case against former United States Senator Ted Stevens. Within weeks of Mr. Holder becoming Attorney General, he moved to dismiss the Stevens prosecution in the interest of justice for the same reasons the Justice Department did against General Flynn—egregious misconduct by prosecutors who hid exculpatory evidence and concocted purported crimes....

          Fourth, even if your many alumni don’t remember multiple cases that had to be reversed or dismissed for their own misconduct, Judge Emmet Sullivan should remember dismissing the corrupted case against Ted Stevens. Judge Sullivan is the judicial hero of Licensed to Lie. It is that case that caused Judge Sullivan to enter the strong Brady order the Mueller and D.C. career prosecutors violated repeatedly in the Flynn prosecution.

          Fifth, there is precedent for guilty pleas being vacated. Your alumni Weissmann and Ruemmler are no strangers to such reversals. At least two guilty pleas they coerced by threats against defendants in Houston had to be thrown out—again for reasons like those here. The defendants “got off scot-free” because—like General Flynn—your alumni had concocted the charges and terrorized the defendants into pleading guilty to “offenses” that were not crimes.

          Sixth, should further edification be necessary, see Why Innocent People Plead Guilty, written in 2014 by federal Judge Jed Rakoff (a Clinton appointee). Abusive prosecutors force innocent people to plead guilty with painful frequency. The Mueller special counsel operation led by Andrew Weissmann and Weissmann “wannabes” specializes in prosecutorial terrorist tactics repulsive to everything “justice” is supposed to mean. These tactics are designed to intimidate their targets into pleading guilty—while punishing them and their families with the process itself and financial ruin.

          Most important, General Flynn was honest with the FBI agents. They knew he was—and briefed that to McCabe and others three different times. At McCabe’s directions, Agent Strzok and McCabe’s “Special Counsel” Lisa Page, altered the 302 to create statements Weissmann, Mueller, Van Grack, and Zainab Ahmad could assert were false. Only the FBI agents lied—and falsified documents. The crimes are theirs alone.

          @xenon, read the last paragraph. Presumably, Powell has evidence that the FBI altered the 302s to indicate that Flynn lied, whereas, in point of fact, she says, he did not.

          "Now look here, you Baltic gas passer... " - Mik, 6/14/08

          The saying, "Lite is just one damn thing after another," is a gross understatement. The damn things overlap.

          1 Reply Last reply
          • X Offline
            X Offline
            xenon
            wrote on last edited by xenon
            #87

            Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

            There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

            The broader issues at play here seem to be:

            • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

            • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

            • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

            Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

            JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
            • X xenon

              Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

              There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

              The broader issues at play here seem to be:

              • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

              • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

              • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

              Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

              JollyJ Offline
              JollyJ Offline
              Jolly
              wrote on last edited by
              #88

              @xenon said in Travesty:

              Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

              There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

              The broader issues at play here seem to be:

              • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

              • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

              • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

              Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

              The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

              Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

              “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

              Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

              X 1 Reply Last reply
              • JollyJ Jolly

                @xenon said in Travesty:

                Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                X Offline
                X Offline
                xenon
                wrote on last edited by xenon
                #89

                @Jolly said in Travesty:

                @xenon said in Travesty:

                Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                Let's say that there was a Republican in office at the time and the Comey / Clinton thing 10 days before the election happened.

                In that case those two dots would have been connected and the other side would have made the same statement as you, Jolly.

                My question here is - did Obama instigate this investigation? Was it politically motivated? Where's the evidence of that?

                Remember these agencies under scrutiny (namely the FBI) are the same ones that drove the single biggest sentiment shift against Clinton in the final days of the campaign. So how do you explain that in the grand conspiracy?

                JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                • LarryL Offline
                  LarryL Offline
                  Larry
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #90

                  Sometimes I wonder if you're doing some sort of performance art or if you're actually as clueless as you seem.

                  1 Reply Last reply
                  • X Offline
                    X Offline
                    xenon
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #91

                    I don't ascribe to conspiracies as a matter of course. Individual bad actors and bad decision are orders of magnitude more likely

                    Even with Trump - Russia collusion. In my mind there was likely nothing there - was an overzealous mistake through incompetence and inexperience.

                    I think people who are smart enough to conceive a workable conspiracy would be very foolhardy to actually try it.

                    1 Reply Last reply
                    • LarryL Offline
                      LarryL Offline
                      Larry
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #92

                      [Quote]Even with Trump - Russia collusion. In my mind there was likely nothing there - was an overzealous mistake through incompetence and inexperience.[/quote]

                      Jesus. Talk about clueless.

                      I guess that eliminated performance art as an excuse.

                      1 Reply Last reply
                      • X Offline
                        X Offline
                        xenon
                        wrote on last edited by xenon
                        #93

                        Rephrasing that a bit :

                        In my mind there was likely nothing there - if there was it would be an overzealous mistake through incompetence and inexperience.

                        I think the record bears out pretty clearly that his campaign did plenty of stupid things, that didn't rise to the level of a crime - still stupid things.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • LarryL Offline
                          LarryL Offline
                          Larry
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #94

                          Like what.

                          X 1 Reply Last reply
                          • X xenon

                            @Jolly said in Travesty:

                            @xenon said in Travesty:

                            Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                            There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                            The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                            • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                            • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                            • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                            Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                            The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                            Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                            Let's say that there was a Republican in office at the time and the Comey / Clinton thing 10 days before the election happened.

                            In that case those two dots would have been connected and the other side would have made the same statement as you, Jolly.

                            My question here is - did Obama instigate this investigation? Was it politically motivated? Where's the evidence of that?

                            Remember these agencies under scrutiny (namely the FBI) are the same ones that drove the single biggest sentiment shift against Clinton in the final days of the campaign. So how do you explain that in the grand conspiracy?

                            JollyJ Offline
                            JollyJ Offline
                            Jolly
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #95

                            @xenon said in Travesty:

                            @Jolly said in Travesty:

                            @xenon said in Travesty:

                            Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                            There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                            The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                            • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                            • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                            • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                            Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                            The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                            Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                            Let's say that there was a Republican in office at the time and the Comey / Clinton thing 10 days before the election happened.

                            In that case those two dots would have been connected and the other side would have made the same statement as you, Jolly.

                            My question here is - did Obama instigate this investigation? Was it politically motivated? Where's the evidence of that?

                            Remember these agencies under scrutiny (namely the FBI) are the same ones that drove the single biggest sentiment shift against Clinton in the final days of the campaign. So how do you explain that in the grand conspiracy?

                            Have you been paying any attention to this thread at all?

                            “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                            Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

                            X 1 Reply Last reply
                            • LarryL Larry

                              Like what.

                              X Offline
                              X Offline
                              xenon
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #96

                              @Larry said in Travesty:

                              Like what.

                              Having a relationship - and even being positively disposed to an organization like wikileaks. Wikileaks - which has been the conduit of classified leakers like Manning and Snowden.

                              I mean if you hate Clinton emails, you gotta hate wikileaks - no?

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • JollyJ Jolly

                                @xenon said in Travesty:

                                @Jolly said in Travesty:

                                @xenon said in Travesty:

                                Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                                There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                                The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                                • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                                • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                                • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                                Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                                The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                                Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                                Let's say that there was a Republican in office at the time and the Comey / Clinton thing 10 days before the election happened.

                                In that case those two dots would have been connected and the other side would have made the same statement as you, Jolly.

                                My question here is - did Obama instigate this investigation? Was it politically motivated? Where's the evidence of that?

                                Remember these agencies under scrutiny (namely the FBI) are the same ones that drove the single biggest sentiment shift against Clinton in the final days of the campaign. So how do you explain that in the grand conspiracy?

                                Have you been paying any attention to this thread at all?

                                X Offline
                                X Offline
                                xenon
                                wrote on last edited by xenon
                                #97

                                @Jolly said in Travesty:

                                @xenon said in Travesty:

                                @Jolly said in Travesty:

                                @xenon said in Travesty:

                                Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                                There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                                The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                                • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                                • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                                • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                                Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                                The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                                Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                                Let's say that there was a Republican in office at the time and the Comey / Clinton thing 10 days before the election happened.

                                In that case those two dots would have been connected and the other side would have made the same statement as you, Jolly.

                                My question here is - did Obama instigate this investigation? Was it politically motivated? Where's the evidence of that?

                                Remember these agencies under scrutiny (namely the FBI) are the same ones that drove the single biggest sentiment shift against Clinton in the final days of the campaign. So how do you explain that in the grand conspiracy?

                                Have you been paying any attention to this thread at all?

                                Yes. And the thread of the title is based on this exchange:

                                LAURA: The president is very frustrated, I think you obviously know that – about Andrew McCabe, and he believes that people like McCabe and others were able to basically flout laws and so far with impunity.

                                BARR: I think the president has every right to be frustrated, because I think what happened to him was one of the greatest travesties in American history. Without any basis they started this investigation of his campaign, and even more concerning, actually is what happened after the campaign, a whole pattern of events while he was president. So I -- to sabotage the presidency, and I think that – or at least have the effect of sabotaging the presidency.

                                INGRAHAM: Will FISA abuses really be prevented going forward given what happened here, where FISA judges are not given critical pieces of information, material facts about evidence that inform the government’s OK-ing the surveillance of American citizens?

                                BARR: You know, I think it’s possible to put in a regime that would make it very hard either to willfully circumvent FISA, or to do so sloppily without due regard for the rights of the American person involved. And also to make it very clear that any misconduct will be discovered and discovered fairly promptly. So I do think we can put in safeguards that will enable us to go forward with this important tool. I think it’s very sad -- and the people who abused FISA have a lot to answer for, because this was an important tool to protect the American people. They abused it, they undercut public confidence in FISA but also the FBI as an institution, and we have to rebuild that

                                It's in the context of McCabe and the FBI. Did McCabe want Hillary elected - how did telegraphing Clinton Foundation probe help that cause?

                                The FBI is playing fast and loose with process (both sides hate Comey) and more than just the Steele FISA warrants are sloppy.

                                Maybe this is an issue of FBI sloppiness and power trips.

                                What I'm asking is - where's the direct Obama connection here? That's the nefarious thing being hinted at.

                                Trump-Russia collusion stories were mostly nefarious hinting as well.

                                Maybe the big lesson here is not political. Maybe it's just the FBI as an institution of law enforcement sucks.

                                JollyJ 1 Reply Last reply
                                • X xenon

                                  @Jolly said in Travesty:

                                  @xenon said in Travesty:

                                  @Jolly said in Travesty:

                                  @xenon said in Travesty:

                                  Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                                  There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                                  The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                                  • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                                  • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                                  • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                                  Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                                  The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                                  Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                                  Let's say that there was a Republican in office at the time and the Comey / Clinton thing 10 days before the election happened.

                                  In that case those two dots would have been connected and the other side would have made the same statement as you, Jolly.

                                  My question here is - did Obama instigate this investigation? Was it politically motivated? Where's the evidence of that?

                                  Remember these agencies under scrutiny (namely the FBI) are the same ones that drove the single biggest sentiment shift against Clinton in the final days of the campaign. So how do you explain that in the grand conspiracy?

                                  Have you been paying any attention to this thread at all?

                                  Yes. And the thread of the title is based on this exchange:

                                  LAURA: The president is very frustrated, I think you obviously know that – about Andrew McCabe, and he believes that people like McCabe and others were able to basically flout laws and so far with impunity.

                                  BARR: I think the president has every right to be frustrated, because I think what happened to him was one of the greatest travesties in American history. Without any basis they started this investigation of his campaign, and even more concerning, actually is what happened after the campaign, a whole pattern of events while he was president. So I -- to sabotage the presidency, and I think that – or at least have the effect of sabotaging the presidency.

                                  INGRAHAM: Will FISA abuses really be prevented going forward given what happened here, where FISA judges are not given critical pieces of information, material facts about evidence that inform the government’s OK-ing the surveillance of American citizens?

                                  BARR: You know, I think it’s possible to put in a regime that would make it very hard either to willfully circumvent FISA, or to do so sloppily without due regard for the rights of the American person involved. And also to make it very clear that any misconduct will be discovered and discovered fairly promptly. So I do think we can put in safeguards that will enable us to go forward with this important tool. I think it’s very sad -- and the people who abused FISA have a lot to answer for, because this was an important tool to protect the American people. They abused it, they undercut public confidence in FISA but also the FBI as an institution, and we have to rebuild that

                                  It's in the context of McCabe and the FBI. Did McCabe want Hillary elected - how did telegraphing Clinton Foundation probe help that cause?

                                  The FBI is playing fast and loose with process (both sides hate Comey) and more than just the Steele FISA warrants are sloppy.

                                  Maybe this is an issue of FBI sloppiness and power trips.

                                  What I'm asking is - where's the direct Obama connection here? That's the nefarious thing being hinted at.

                                  Trump-Russia collusion stories were mostly nefarious hinting as well.

                                  Maybe the big lesson here is not political. Maybe it's just the FBI as an institution of law enforcement sucks.

                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  JollyJ Offline
                                  Jolly
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #98

                                  @xenon said in Travesty:

                                  @Jolly said in Travesty:

                                  @xenon said in Travesty:

                                  @Jolly said in Travesty:

                                  @xenon said in Travesty:

                                  Is Flynn's testimony public record? Was it a "I do not recall" sorta deal? Or did he say he didn't talk with the Russian ambassador, or didn't talk about sanctions.

                                  There's so much legal detail here that I would never be able to filter through the fact and editorialization.

                                  The broader issues at play here seem to be:

                                  • How rotten was the cause behind the FBI's shoddy work? (routine overzealousness, political pressure, etc.)

                                  • If Obama was trying to do something here - what was it? There's a lot of insinuation of involvement, but little direct allegations.

                                  • Flynn is a bad actor regardless of any of the above, no? Lies to the Trump admin, at the very least not very forthcoming with the FBI, he did enter a guilty plea - which should raise alarms; I can't imagine that powerful, innocent people are pleading guilty to things as a matter of routine

                                  Stepping back even further. There's a lot of insinuation in this story and coverage - but little in terms of direct allegations. What is the biggest concern here?

                                  The biggest concern is the weaponization of elements of the government in a coordinated effort to interfere in a presidential election and to engage in massive subversion against a duly elected President.

                                  Is that a big enough concern or do you wish to equivocate that?

                                  Let's say that there was a Republican in office at the time and the Comey / Clinton thing 10 days before the election happened.

                                  In that case those two dots would have been connected and the other side would have made the same statement as you, Jolly.

                                  My question here is - did Obama instigate this investigation? Was it politically motivated? Where's the evidence of that?

                                  Remember these agencies under scrutiny (namely the FBI) are the same ones that drove the single biggest sentiment shift against Clinton in the final days of the campaign. So how do you explain that in the grand conspiracy?

                                  Have you been paying any attention to this thread at all?

                                  Yes. And the thread of the title is based on this exchange:

                                  LAURA: The president is very frustrated, I think you obviously know that – about Andrew McCabe, and he believes that people like McCabe and others were able to basically flout laws and so far with impunity.

                                  BARR: I think the president has every right to be frustrated, because I think what happened to him was one of the greatest travesties in American history. Without any basis they started this investigation of his campaign, and even more concerning, actually is what happened after the campaign, a whole pattern of events while he was president. So I -- to sabotage the presidency, and I think that – or at least have the effect of sabotaging the presidency.

                                  INGRAHAM: Will FISA abuses really be prevented going forward given what happened here, where FISA judges are not given critical pieces of information, material facts about evidence that inform the government’s OK-ing the surveillance of American citizens?

                                  BARR: You know, I think it’s possible to put in a regime that would make it very hard either to willfully circumvent FISA, or to do so sloppily without due regard for the rights of the American person involved. And also to make it very clear that any misconduct will be discovered and discovered fairly promptly. So I do think we can put in safeguards that will enable us to go forward with this important tool. I think it’s very sad -- and the people who abused FISA have a lot to answer for, because this was an important tool to protect the American people. They abused it, they undercut public confidence in FISA but also the FBI as an institution, and we have to rebuild that

                                  It's in the context of McCabe and the FBI. Did McCabe want Hillary elected - how did telegraphing Clinton Foundation probe help that cause?

                                  The FBI is playing fast and loose with process (both sides hate Comey) and more than just the Steele FISA warrants are sloppy.

                                  Maybe this is an issue of FBI sloppiness and power trips.

                                  What I'm asking is - where's the direct Obama connection here? That's the nefarious thing being hinted at.

                                  Trump-Russia collusion stories were mostly nefarious hinting as well.

                                  Maybe the big lesson here is not political. Maybe it's just the FBI as an institution of law enforcement sucks.

                                  Remind me again...How were things manipulated, so that a special counsel was appointed to look into Ms. Clinton?

                                  “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                  Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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                                  • X Offline
                                    X Offline
                                    xenon
                                    wrote on last edited by xenon
                                    #99

                                    Before or after she became President?

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                                    • LarryL Offline
                                      LarryL Offline
                                      Larry
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #100

                                      Yep. It's not performance art.. It's ignorance.

                                      X 1 Reply Last reply
                                      • LarryL Larry

                                        Yep. It's not performance art.. It's ignorance.

                                        X Offline
                                        X Offline
                                        xenon
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #101

                                        @Larry said in Travesty:

                                        Yep. It's not performance art.. It's ignorance.

                                        Defend the Wikileaks thing.

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                                        • JollyJ Offline
                                          JollyJ Offline
                                          Jolly
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #102

                                          Xenon, you're just too smart for me. Carry on.

                                          “Cry havoc and let slip the DOGE of war!”

                                          Those who cheered as J-6 American prisoners were locked in solitary for 18 months without trial, now suddenly fight tooth and nail for foreign terrorists’ "due process". — Buck Sexton

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