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  3. Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness

Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness

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  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

    @Horace

    Except not. If you criticize and make fun of both Trumpism and wokeness you don’t make too many friends. Look at some of my threads next door criticizing wokeness -you can practically hear people sputter and point. And here, look at the grief I get from you for refusing that orange pill.

    HoraceH Offline
    HoraceH Offline
    Horace
    wrote on last edited by
    #50

    @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

    @Horace

    Except not. If you criticize and make fun of both Trumpism and wokeness you don’t make too many friends. Look at some of my threads next door criticizing wokeness -you can practically hear people sputter and point. And here, look at the grief I get from you for refusing that orange pill.

    I think the word Trumpism is a convenient one used to integrate anybody who prefers Trump to his current political opposition, with Trump himself. Wokeness on the other hand is a blatant large-scale cultural movement, permeating every aspect of this culture we all have to exist in.

    Education is extremely important.

    L 1 Reply Last reply
    • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

      @Horace

      Except not. If you criticize and make fun of both Trumpism and wokeness you don’t make too many friends. Look at some of my threads next door criticizing wokeness -you can practically hear people sputter and point. And here, look at the grief I get from you for refusing that orange pill.

      Doctor PhibesD Online
      Doctor PhibesD Online
      Doctor Phibes
      wrote on last edited by
      #51

      @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

      @Horace

      Except not. If you criticize and make fun of both Trumpism and wokeness you don’t make too many friends. Look at some of my threads next door criticizing wokeness -you can practically hear people sputter and point. And here, look at the grief I get from you for refusing that orange pill.

      If you don't fit in a handy little compartment it upsets people. You need to either embrace The Woke or The Orange.

      I was only joking

      1 Reply Last reply
      • HoraceH Offline
        HoraceH Offline
        Horace
        wrote on last edited by
        #52

        But neither you nor jon display much willingness to differentiate support for Trump over his political opposition, from some caricatured devotion to everything he thinks and says. Which is exactly an issue of fitting people into compartments.

        Education is extremely important.

        jon-nycJ Doctor PhibesD 2 Replies Last reply
        • jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nycJ Offline
          jon-nyc
          wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
          #53

          @Horace

          I think the word Trumpism is a convenient one used to integrate anybody who prefers Trump to his current political opposition, with Trump himself.

          That’s a hard view to reconcile with the 2016 primary.

          Only non-witches get due process.

          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
          1 Reply Last reply
          • jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nycJ Offline
            jon-nyc
            wrote on last edited by
            #54

            Or to reconcile with the many lifelong GOP stalwarts who couldn’t pull a lever for him. Including at least 4 here.

            Trump definitely started a movement, and it was a fairly radical departure from the GOP that preceded it.

            Only non-witches get due process.

            • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
            HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
            • HoraceH Horace

              But neither you nor jon display much willingness to differentiate support for Trump over his political opposition, from some caricatured devotion to everything he thinks and says. Which is exactly an issue of fitting people into compartments.

              jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nycJ Offline
              jon-nyc
              wrote on last edited by jon-nyc
              #55

              @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

              But neither you nor jon display much willingness to differentiate support for Trump over his political opposition, from some caricatured devotion to everything he thinks and says.

              Nonsense. Surely one of the reasons we post his most ridiculous tweets here is to watch you guys squirm a little.

              Only non-witches get due process.

              • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
              HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
              • HoraceH Horace

                But neither you nor jon display much willingness to differentiate support for Trump over his political opposition, from some caricatured devotion to everything he thinks and says. Which is exactly an issue of fitting people into compartments.

                Doctor PhibesD Online
                Doctor PhibesD Online
                Doctor Phibes
                wrote on last edited by Doctor Phibes
                #56

                @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                But neither you nor jon display much willingness to differentiate support for Trump over his political opposition, from some caricatured devotion to everything he thinks and says. Which is exactly an issue of fitting people into compartments.

                Some people here do seem to support just about everything he does. I also realise lots of people who voted for him didn't much like him. I find there's a huge difference from what people say here and what people say to me in real life. In real life I find it's much easier to have actual discussions without it descending into idiocy. And I fully realise I'm as guilty of that as anybody else. I've always had a very low boredom threshold, which generally leads to bad behavour. If you actually take half of what I say seriously, then what can I say? 😀

                I was only joking

                1 Reply Last reply
                • HoraceH Horace

                  @Catseye3 said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                  Moving on down in the article, in any discussion, Sullivan writes, "An oppressed person’s word is always the last one."

                  Is that because the other is struck dumb by the surreal stupidity with which he is confronted?

                  No, that's because of the weaponized cancellation of anybody who questions whether oppression grants ultimate authority in cultural/political discussions.

                  Catseye3C Offline
                  Catseye3C Offline
                  Catseye3
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #57

                  @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                  No, that's because of the weaponized cancellation of anybody who questions whether oppression grants ultimate authority in cultural/political discussions.

                  Which is saying the same thing in Horace-speak.

                  Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                  HoraceH 1 Reply Last reply
                  • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                    Or to reconcile with the many lifelong GOP stalwarts who couldn’t pull a lever for him. Including at least 4 here.

                    Trump definitely started a movement, and it was a fairly radical departure from the GOP that preceded it.

                    HoraceH Offline
                    HoraceH Offline
                    Horace
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #58

                    @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                    Or to reconcile with the many lifelong GOP stalwarts who couldn’t pull a lever for him. Including at least 4 here.

                    Why would I need to go to any pains to reconcile that? People find Trump viscerally revolting because he sniffs low class. That sort of visceral revulsion is a red-line issue for some. I've explained that here at length. It's far from inscrutable to me.

                    Trump definitely started a movement, and it was a fairly radical departure from the GOP that preceded it.

                    His personality is a radical departure from GOP politicians before him. The movements he started were mostly in reaction against him, on the left.

                    Education is extremely important.

                    X 1 Reply Last reply
                    • Catseye3C Catseye3

                      @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                      No, that's because of the weaponized cancellation of anybody who questions whether oppression grants ultimate authority in cultural/political discussions.

                      Which is saying the same thing in Horace-speak.

                      HoraceH Offline
                      HoraceH Offline
                      Horace
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #59

                      @Catseye3 said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                      @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                      No, that's because of the weaponized cancellation of anybody who questions whether oppression grants ultimate authority in cultural/political discussions.

                      Which is saying the same thing in Horace-speak.

                      No, it wasn't the same thing. Nobody is silent against the cancel mob because the cancel mob is too stupid. It's because the cancel mob is too dangerous.

                      Education is extremely important.

                      Catseye3C 1 Reply Last reply
                      • jon-nycJ jon-nyc

                        @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                        But neither you nor jon display much willingness to differentiate support for Trump over his political opposition, from some caricatured devotion to everything he thinks and says.

                        Nonsense. Surely one of the reasons we post his most ridiculous tweets here is to watch you guys squirm a little.

                        HoraceH Offline
                        HoraceH Offline
                        Horace
                        wrote on last edited by Horace
                        #60

                        @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                        @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                        But neither you nor jon display much willingness to differentiate support for Trump over his political opposition, from some caricatured devotion to everything he thinks and says.

                        Nonsense. Surely one of the reasons we post his most ridiculous tweets here is to watch you guys squirm a little.

                        Well, you enjoy giggling at people you think are stupid. Meanwhile, as far as i know, most posters here, even his supporters, wish he'd calm down with those stupid tweets.

                        Education is extremely important.

                        1 Reply Last reply
                        • jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nycJ Offline
                          jon-nyc
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #61

                          Exactly, which we recognize. Hence my point.

                          Only non-witches get due process.

                          • Cotton Mather, Salem Massachusetts, 1692
                          1 Reply Last reply
                          • HoraceH Horace

                            @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                            Or to reconcile with the many lifelong GOP stalwarts who couldn’t pull a lever for him. Including at least 4 here.

                            Why would I need to go to any pains to reconcile that? People find Trump viscerally revolting because he sniffs low class. That sort of visceral revulsion is a red-line issue for some. I've explained that here at length. It's far from inscrutable to me.

                            Trump definitely started a movement, and it was a fairly radical departure from the GOP that preceded it.

                            His personality is a radical departure from GOP politicians before him. The movements he started were mostly in reaction against him, on the left.

                            X Offline
                            X Offline
                            xenon
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #62

                            @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                            People find Trump viscerally revolting because he sniffs low class

                            That depends on the definition of low-class

                            1 Reply Last reply
                            • HoraceH Horace

                              @Catseye3 said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                              @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                              No, that's because of the weaponized cancellation of anybody who questions whether oppression grants ultimate authority in cultural/political discussions.

                              Which is saying the same thing in Horace-speak.

                              No, it wasn't the same thing. Nobody is silent against the cancel mob because the cancel mob is too stupid. It's because the cancel mob is too dangerous.

                              Catseye3C Offline
                              Catseye3C Offline
                              Catseye3
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #63

                              @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                              No, it wasn't the same thing. Nobody is silent against the cancel mob because the cancel mob is too stupid. It's because the cancel mob is too dangerous.

                              How about both?

                              As for the dangerous, yes, they are. But I can't accept that a movement this goofball can last forever. Like Phibbs (?) said, they're good at tearing down, not so much at building back up. And conditions don't remain in torn-down status indefinitely.

                              I remain enough of a Randist to believe that in the end, above all, competence must prevail. I want to say to these people: If you want the goodies, do the work. Clear the starry-eyed crap out of your vision, study your human history, and accept that rising to the top demands more than painting big yellow letters on the pavement. Didn’t nobody promise you a rose garden, babe, and ain’t nobody gonna carry you but so far, for so long.

                              Success is measured by your discipline and inner peace. – Mike Ditka

                              1 Reply Last reply
                              • LarryL Offline
                                LarryL Offline
                                Larry
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #64

                                I don't know who's gonna win, but this is making me horny so I'm gonna fuck the winner.

                                89th8 1 Reply Last reply
                                • HoraceH Horace

                                  @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                                  @Horace

                                  Except not. If you criticize and make fun of both Trumpism and wokeness you don’t make too many friends. Look at some of my threads next door criticizing wokeness -you can practically hear people sputter and point. And here, look at the grief I get from you for refusing that orange pill.

                                  I think the word Trumpism is a convenient one used to integrate anybody who prefers Trump to his current political opposition, with Trump himself. Wokeness on the other hand is a blatant large-scale cultural movement, permeating every aspect of this culture we all have to exist in.

                                  L Offline
                                  L Offline
                                  Loki
                                  wrote on last edited by Loki
                                  #65

                                  @Horace said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                                  @jon-nyc said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                                  @Horace

                                  Except not. If you criticize and make fun of both Trumpism and wokeness you don’t make too many friends. Look at some of my threads next door criticizing wokeness -you can practically hear people sputter and point. And here, look at the grief I get from you for refusing that orange pill.

                                  I think the word Trumpism is a convenient one used to integrate anybody who prefers Trump to his current political opposition, with Trump himself. Wokeness on the other hand is a blatant large-scale cultural movement, permeating every aspect of this culture we all have to exist in.

                                  This resonates with me. Not voting is a big contender and just praying wokeness burns itself out.

                                  1 Reply Last reply
                                  • LarryL Larry

                                    I don't know who's gonna win, but this is making me horny so I'm gonna fuck the winner.

                                    89th8 Offline
                                    89th8 Offline
                                    89th
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #66

                                    @Larry said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                                    I don't know who's gonna win, but this is making me horny so I'm gonna fuck the winner.

                                    Which immediately will make them the loser 😆

                                    1 Reply Last reply
                                    • LarryL Offline
                                      LarryL Offline
                                      Larry
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #67

                                      I don't know if it will make them the loser or not, but they'll walk funny for a couple of days..... hahahaha

                                      1 Reply Last reply
                                      • KlausK Klaus

                                        Now about the article: The one thing that leaves me a little dissatisfied with it is that I think most "woke" people aren't very familiar with critical theory. I have a hard time imagining that all those adolescent ultra-progressives read works from the Frankfurt school or Foucault.

                                        So, while it may be true that "critical theory" has been the origin of the "woke" philosophy, it seems to me that there is a narrative that justifies being "woke" that doesn't require familiarity with critical theory.

                                        KincaidK Offline
                                        KincaidK Offline
                                        Kincaid
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #68

                                        @Klaus said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                                        Now about the article: The one thing that leaves me a little dissatisfied with it is that I think most "woke" people aren't very familiar with critical theory. I have a hard time imagining that all those adolescent ultra-progressives read works from the Frankfurt school or Foucault.

                                        So, while it may be true that "critical theory" has been the origin of the "woke" philosophy, it seems to me that there is a narrative that justifies being "woke" that doesn't require familiarity with critical theory.

                                        All three of my girls went to Oregon State University. My oldest (housing studies) and youngest (communications) have responded with much woke-speak following George Floyd and BLM protests. My middle (forestry) is much more "hard work, good choices, personal responsibility". It has been a bit difficult to navigate these waters with reasoned discussion.

                                        taiwan_girlT 89th8 2 Replies Last reply
                                        • KincaidK Kincaid

                                          @Klaus said in Andrew Sullivan on The Roots of Wokeness:

                                          Now about the article: The one thing that leaves me a little dissatisfied with it is that I think most "woke" people aren't very familiar with critical theory. I have a hard time imagining that all those adolescent ultra-progressives read works from the Frankfurt school or Foucault.

                                          So, while it may be true that "critical theory" has been the origin of the "woke" philosophy, it seems to me that there is a narrative that justifies being "woke" that doesn't require familiarity with critical theory.

                                          All three of my girls went to Oregon State University. My oldest (housing studies) and youngest (communications) have responded with much woke-speak following George Floyd and BLM protests. My middle (forestry) is much more "hard work, good choices, personal responsibility". It has been a bit difficult to navigate these waters with reasoned discussion.

                                          taiwan_girlT Offline
                                          taiwan_girlT Offline
                                          taiwan_girl
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #69

                                          @Kincaid Hi Kincaid! 👋

                                          KincaidK 1 Reply Last reply
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